Yeah, like when Cheech sneaked into a drive-in movie in the trunk of a car, then the key didn't work so he yelled for Chong to go to the concession stand and get him a crowbar.

And Chong drank a big soda then told Cheech it was raining.
Lies and crime everywhere.

 

WHAT IN THE WORLD IS GOING ON HERE, I SET FOOT OUT OF MY COURT FOR 1 MINUTE AND COME BACK TO THIS!!!

ORDER IN MY COURT NOW!!! OR I WILL BE FORCED TO ASK MY SUPERIORS TO SHUT IT DOWN!!!

Everybody take it easy and calm down lets try to be a little more civil in here, Please.

 

OK, but I was quoted out of context on pages 2 & 5.
This thread has shaken me to my very core.

That said, I didn't threaten anyone with a swarm of locusts but, I'm carrying it in my back pocket if I need it later.

 

Does the Bible have value as a guide for men within a structured society? Absolutely. (Constantine designed and decreed it so.) Is it proof of a supreme being that has a close relationship with the souls of men? No. Only a leap of Faith can give one a belief in God. The stories and accounts within both the Old and New Testaments are teaching tools, and nothing more. Heaven and Hell are the carrot and the whip. I'm glad religion exists, because many cannot live within the structure of society without guidance and a bit of brainwashing.

 

The statement below:
Here's where you say to be "saved" you have to be Christian. Therefore, if you aren't Christian, you can never be saved, and therefore cannot ever be perfect. It sounds like you're saying that to be Christian is to strive for (your version) of perfection.

You still have not addressed my questions about people who have never been exposed to Jesus, what is their fate? If you are right about Jesus being a son-of-a-God, and only though him can you reach Heaven, then there has to be an answer about what happened to people's souls before Jesus, or cultures who were never exposed to Jesus. Do you believe that your God would abandon them to eternity in Hell because they were born in the "wrong" place or time?

What about a solider who is drafted to go kill for his country (think beyond our boarders and current time). Are his murderous intentions "right"? If he repents, will he be saved? What's the difference between that and any other killer who repents his actions? Then again, it's through faith alone that someone is saved, so their actions are irrelevant, right?

But the Bible plainly states "thou shalt not steal." That's a pretty cut and dry request. Now if you're saying you can break those rules depending on the situation? Well, if you can break that rule, why not the others?


Why can't people just admit that Religion was a good way for the old world to teach people to live decently? Most of the teachings are still good, don't steal, don't kill, etc.... but all this BS about how to get in to Heaven, or being "saved" is just something that was used to get people to buy into the idea of religion in the first place. Who wouldn't want to have an immortal afterlife of pleasure and joy? Who wants to spend an eternity in a pit of fire and brimstone?

Religion is the last remnants of an archaic world that for some reason has refused to die down. Not surprising really, I mean, Religion has nothing to do with Truth. Just look at all the people throughout history who were exiled, tortured or killed because they offered different alternatives to what the Church said. Years ago a man could be executed for merely suggesting that the Earth orbits around the Sun. That was an idea formed from factual observation, with repeatable results; two points that religious ideas rarely, if ever, can claim.

Raoul, you're the closest thing to a God I've ever had the pleasure of conversing with.

- NCSU

 

It's ok Raoul I know, now come on son, go ahead and have a seat while the other calm down.

 

Exactly... It's just too bad the brainwashed have to ruin things for everyone else, regardless of which group did the brainwashing.

- NCSU

 

I almost hate to ask but can you explain how the brainwashed (Bible believing Christians I assume from your statements) have ruined things for you? Just curious?

 

A hypothetical: let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect.

How is it possible for a perfect God to create imperfect humans?

 

NCSU

The Bible does discuss how people who have never been exposed to Christianity will not suffer the consequences of a non-believer who has been exposed to it and refuses to accept. Also, the Bible states that one will not be held accountable if his country calls him forward to fight for his country. You're somewhat right in what you said, that faith alone is the deciding factor. That being said, I'm not an expert on that and I will not be the judge of that. I never claim to be a know-it-all and of course I can't speak for how God would handle a situation.

The thing that concerned me most is what you said about 'if you're not a Christian than you cannot be saved.' ENTIRELY WRONG. It's the exact opposite. Those who have not truely heard the word of God and have not accepted Christ as their savior are the ones who need him most! Anyone can be saved; even someone like Hitler. I'm not trying to play God here, but you see what I'm saying. The things we do here on earth will not pale in comparrison to the eterninty that each of us will endure, even for a person who was in charge of the killing of 6 million people. Even he had a chance to be forgiven. Doesnt make sense to smart, worldly, non brainwashed people like you and Raoul but it shows the extent of God's love and how far he is willing to reach out for each soul. Addressing another point you made: the Bible says that he will never leave us or forsake us.

Again, God tells us this in the Bible, this is none of my original thought.


You are somewhat right about people that have abused religion and their beliefs in the past. Some have used it to torture, kill, and persecute people who don't follow their own beliefs. This can be said about Islam, nationality, gender, and many other 'groups' as well, so you can't single out Christianity. It's had its embarassing moments and periods (The Crusades of course were not one of Christianitys highlights even though it was not 100% Christians fault)

I wish I could answer your questions better, but I'm just a steel salesman. Sitting down with a Protestant priest would answer your questions. It would be healthy for you because obviously you've never had any of these answered properly before. Same for you, Raoul.

 

The Christians are just as brainwashed as any other religion, the Christians are just the most prominent group over here. Most Christians, like most people of other religions are decent people just trying to make it through their lives the best they can.

Personally I try to keep "Religion" out of my life as much as possible, so directly, religion has not ruined my life. But ask any mother of a solider killed in Afghanistan or Iraq how religious brainwashing has affected their lives and you'll get a different answer. Whether we want to admit it or not, we are fighting a Religious War, our enemies don't want our money, our land or our resources. They want us dead because we are not like them.

On that topic, how about the crusades or the inquisition? Justified religious slaughter. What about all those little kids who were molested by the very people who teaching them about morality?

Sure, many religions teach good things as well, but when people stop questioning what they're being taught, or blindly follow what their leaders say, we can find ourselves in very dangerous situations. As others pointed out, people are not perfect, and are corruptible. Since religion was created by men, it therefore cannot be perfect, and is also corruptible.


- NCSU

 

Wow. So right before he put a bullet in his brain he could have made amends with God and could be sitting in heaven just chilling as speak? Any 'God' that could allow that, I want no part of.

It's this unyielding belief that, "if the Bible (Torah, Koran, TVguide, whatever) says so, it must be true" that's dangerous. Even the whole Shepherd and His Flock analogy enforces that idea that people should follow blindly whatever the religious leader says. Luckily for us, our founding fathers (religious though they were) deemed it necessary to separate Church and State for those very reasons. Look at the counties around the world that are led by religious governments... Hopefully you can see where I'm going with this...

Why do I need to talk to a Protestant, or any Christian? Why not a Rabbi or Imam? Have you ever sought out any religious opinion that differs to the one you were raised on? My guess is you attended church your whole life and your parents were also involved in the church. I've told you, my brother-in-law is a Catholic Priest. He was made a priest about 4-5 years after he had a massive heart attack and was legally dead for over 30 minutes. Never once has he expressed concern for my soul.

- NCSU

 

Because bad things are done by any extremist on the name of God or a particular religion does not make them right! It also does not mean God had a thing to do with it. My opinion is that every one of the examples you suggested including the ancient crusades and inquisition were done by people using religion as a cover, It was for either as a means to power or to commit crimes. And I would include Muslim jihadist terrorist in that statement.

Take that down a notch to everyday life. All people make mistakes regardless of their religious beliefs or lack of them.

Your statement appears to say that religion ruins it for everyone else and that ruin is the wars, abuse etc as if religion was the cause. I say if you remove religion from the equation you will still have those same problems.

 

But then why didn't God prevent it?

See, I say remove religion from the equation and you no longer have that safehouse for those bad people to hide behind. And religion is one of the biggest safehouses out there, simply because you don't need to prove anything, it's all about belief and faith. Luckily for us, individual beliefs and faiths are protected in this country, for now.

Just like if someone has a crappy life and prays for it to be better, but nothing gets better... then that person decides to take matters into their own hands and makes things better for themselves, you'd just say that was God's work empowering that person to save themselves.

You could say it was God working through Hilter to murder millions and millions of people so that we'd end up with WWII so the Jewish people could finally get a country of their own.

When people don't use free thinking, logic or rational thought, you can draw nearly any conclusion from nearly any event. If you got into a bad car accident and are injured, it's God testing you. If you into a bad car accident and were able to walk away, God was protecting you.

This may seem like I'm being a jackass, but here's a question I would like to have answered by someone who considers themselves religious. If there is intelligent life somewhere else in the Universe, does it fall under the rule of God, or can only Humans have souls that go to heaven or hell?

- NCSU

 

You know that is a pretty good question. I am sure there is a better answer out there than what I could give. It probably has something to do with our understanding of what is perfect. I would say that if something is perfect it could do anything and not be limited. So can you limit a pefect being by saying it cannot make something imperfect? Sounds very much like did the chicken or the egg come first to me!

But my question in response to yours would be is giving a being free will giving it an imperfection? As you pointed out we choose to disobey. So if we could not choose then we could not disobey and we would not sin! On the other hand we would not be able to choose to love God either we would only be like programmed robots.

I actually have enjoyed this thread. Some of my post actually have helped me out in my thinking!