New Ford boss not wasting any time!
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,118
Likes: 7
From: Burleson, Texas
Originally Posted by 01 XLT Sport
A “skilled” job is generally a trade such as electrician, plumber, carpenter etc. An ‘unskilled” job is a person on a manufacturing floor building something such as most those on the floor where Ford vehicles get built.
Building a vehicle, regardless if you do training or not, is NOT a “skilled” job because anybody can do it within days or weeks. Manufacturing jobs, at least at any kind of company that is decent, has processes and procedures for the employee to follow.
Building a vehicle is very simple and you can have a process with step by step instructions on exactly how to do it the same way every time. There is no decision the employee has to make on their own but rather on what the process tells them to do.
Skilled labor, such as an electrician, does not have process and procedures with step by step instructions. Yes there are codes and processes for many things an electrician does but when they run into an electrical problem they have to troubleshoot and while some troubleshooting has particular processes in which one would go by as a general rule there is NO step by step process since the education of being an electrician is how an electrician determines which step will be their next step in troubleshooting to find the root cause of a problem and then solve it.
A production floor person does not need to be educated since there is a step by step for everything they do and thus anybody, including the teenager from McDonalds, could do a production job at Ford, ANYBODY can build a vehicle on a production floor, no education required…
Unions will NOT be around much longer 5, 10, perhaps 15 years you will see the unions get smaller and smaller, at least for UNSKILLED jobs such as those on Ford’s production floor. Main reason is since those jobs are UNSKILLED they can move them over the border and have other UNSKILLED labor do them for much less money.
The day’s of paying someone $20 - $30 an hour for doing unskilled work are done and over its just a matter of time until those jobs go away for good…
It will be good for America and all of its citizens because it will mean the return of quality products at a FAIR price for ALL, just look at Toyota and you see what tomorrow looks like for Ford, Chevy, Dodge, etc, either Ford, Chevy, and Dodge will have NO unions or they will move all or most production over the border or they will all go out of business…
Tomorrow is looking brighter everyday, thank Toyota for proving the way it should be done…
Building a vehicle, regardless if you do training or not, is NOT a “skilled” job because anybody can do it within days or weeks. Manufacturing jobs, at least at any kind of company that is decent, has processes and procedures for the employee to follow.
Building a vehicle is very simple and you can have a process with step by step instructions on exactly how to do it the same way every time. There is no decision the employee has to make on their own but rather on what the process tells them to do.
Skilled labor, such as an electrician, does not have process and procedures with step by step instructions. Yes there are codes and processes for many things an electrician does but when they run into an electrical problem they have to troubleshoot and while some troubleshooting has particular processes in which one would go by as a general rule there is NO step by step process since the education of being an electrician is how an electrician determines which step will be their next step in troubleshooting to find the root cause of a problem and then solve it.
A production floor person does not need to be educated since there is a step by step for everything they do and thus anybody, including the teenager from McDonalds, could do a production job at Ford, ANYBODY can build a vehicle on a production floor, no education required…
Unions will NOT be around much longer 5, 10, perhaps 15 years you will see the unions get smaller and smaller, at least for UNSKILLED jobs such as those on Ford’s production floor. Main reason is since those jobs are UNSKILLED they can move them over the border and have other UNSKILLED labor do them for much less money.
The day’s of paying someone $20 - $30 an hour for doing unskilled work are done and over its just a matter of time until those jobs go away for good…
It will be good for America and all of its citizens because it will mean the return of quality products at a FAIR price for ALL, just look at Toyota and you see what tomorrow looks like for Ford, Chevy, Dodge, etc, either Ford, Chevy, and Dodge will have NO unions or they will move all or most production over the border or they will all go out of business…
Tomorrow is looking brighter everyday, thank Toyota for proving the way it should be done…
Unions are here to stay. They will never go away, nor will the people who feel they have to discredit something they know nothing about.
But that's why we have a GD forum so we can all spew off something about nothing, with proof or without.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,867
Likes: 0
From: NH
Originally Posted by Stealth
The points you made are so untrue. I am very disheartened that people share opinions such as yours about unions and their members.
Unions are here to stay. They will never go away, nor will the people who feel they have to discredit something they know nothing about.
But that's why we have a GD forum so we can all spew off something about nothing, with proof or without.
Unions are here to stay. They will never go away, nor will the people who feel they have to discredit something they know nothing about.
But that's why we have a GD forum so we can all spew off something about nothing, with proof or without.
Jobs going to Mexico...
Most those, if not all, were once union jobs in America. It just goes to show ANYBODY can do a union manufacturing job, it's a very simple job and as long as someone can fog a window, they can do it...
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
From: Jersey shore
Come here to NJ and you will see the Hispanics doing the concrete, plumbing, sheetrock, wiring and framing of new homes. I guess they do this work better and cheaper than the other Americans. Look out. Your job is next. But it's good for the economy.
One other thing. When major companies move out of an area it has a huge ripple affect on everyone. But it's good for the economy.
One other thing. When major companies move out of an area it has a huge ripple affect on everyone. But it's good for the economy.
Last edited by 6T6CPE; Sep 16, 2006 at 01:44 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,118
Likes: 7
From: Burleson, Texas
Originally Posted by 01 XLT Sport
It's all true what I write it just may be hard for some to come to grips with it. The best example of many is a very simple example:
Jobs going to Mexico...
Most those, if not all, were once union jobs in America. It just goes to show ANYBODY can do a union manufacturing job, it's a very simple job and as long as someone can fog a window, they can do it...
Jobs going to Mexico...
Most those, if not all, were once union jobs in America. It just goes to show ANYBODY can do a union manufacturing job, it's a very simple job and as long as someone can fog a window, they can do it...
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: Blue Ridge Mountains, GA
Jobs going to Mexico
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,118
Likes: 7
From: Burleson, Texas
Originally Posted by Frank S
Sorry Burt, I gotta pull your card on that one. Jobs went/are going to Mexico because of greed. NAFTA CAFTA, MFN for China is all the same. Any way you slice it, it's bad for America. It is even starting to effect pay scales for desk jobs here in the US. More people competing for jobs is not a good thing when it comes to pay.
Technical Article Contributor
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 6,509
Likes: 6
From: Georgia on my mind...
Originally Posted by mountaineer02v8
<snip...>
UNION = SKILLED
Non-Union= Unskilled, un Educated
Congratulations. You earned it.
Moderator &
Senior Member
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 31,440
Likes: 4
From: The Bluegrass State
Originally Posted by SAJEFFC
Hey man, hows it going? I know I know, have been busy at work and spent a week clay bar-ing (sp) Big Red! (dang you and your detailing tips RP!) 
Moderator &
Senior Member
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 31,440
Likes: 4
From: The Bluegrass State
Originally Posted by Quintin
As a Ford and Isuzu certified non-union technician, and ASE master certified non-union technician working a skilled trade, who's forgotten more about all the bits and pieces bumper to bumper in your Mountaineer than you'll ever know, I'm gonna go ahead and nominate this for the F150online.com Dumbass Comment of the Year.
Congratulations. You earned it.
Congratulations. You earned it.
While I'd typically snub a comment like this Qunitin, I'm going to have to play the double standard card here and agree 225% with you. Mattineer's comment was just about the most unbelievably stupid thing I've heard in a long time.
Moderator &
Senior Member
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 31,440
Likes: 4
From: The Bluegrass State
Originally Posted by Stealth
I have to agree.
I'm going to third this one. You're off-base on this one Burt. You've zigged when you should've zagged.
While I do concur that some unions have gotten a bit too big for their britches and, in turn, have driven up the price of some goods to the point that they brought bad upon themselves and have hurt an industry as a whole in the meantime (the UMWA (mine workers) is a prime example). They have, however, paved the way for many safety solutions and better environments for some workers (again, the UMWA is a great example).
While not all factories/big wigs are out to screw their employees, some are. There is a place for a union in many circumstances but, it's a double-edged sword in many situations.
RP
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,121
Likes: 0
From: Hammer Lane
Originally Posted by Quintin
As a Ford and Isuzu certified non-union technician, and ASE master certified non-union technician working a skilled trade, who's forgotten more about all the bits and pieces bumper to bumper in your Mountaineer than you'll ever know, I'm gonna go ahead and nominate this for the F150online.com Dumbass Comment of the Year.
Congratulations. You earned it.
Congratulations. You earned it.
Considering that he's responsible for 9 of the top 10 nominated comments, that's really saying something; but, I have to agree.
I don't want to see Unions go away; but, when they start hurting the company that is providing their wages and benefits, there has to be a way to knock them down a notch or two. The alternative is union workers out of work due to plant closings.
Without unions, the non-union job I have wouldn't pay me as much as they do, to keep me from voting a union in. During the industrial revolution, after slavery had been eliminated in the South, whole families were working in factories in the north to survive in poverty while the owners of the company were living in obscene wealth. Without worker's unions, this country would not be as comfortable, for the majority of us, as it is now.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by 01 XLT Sport
Tomorrow is looking brighter everyday, thank Toyota for proving the way it should be done…
Is that what you mean by doing it right? This exactly the kind of crap that made unions a neccessary evil.
Of course I know some people who would say too bad that's life, and then try to cut off her government disabilty as well.
What's really funny is that most of the people slamming unions probably think their own profession is underpaid but you could find someone to say their overpaid etc.
My take is this. Virtually every complaint on these forums about our vehicles boils to down to someone probably making a lot more than a production worker not doing their job. An engineer designs a flawed part, cooks up a flawed process etc., marketing fails to anticipate the market, designers with egos too big to admit it really is an ugly vehicle, all of these problems are the reason Ford is going under and the guy just putting the parts together trying to make a living for his family is getting all the heat?
Moderator &
Senior Member
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 31,440
Likes: 4
From: The Bluegrass State
Originally Posted by 6T6CPE
What I think Matt was refering to is the Union construction trades. They normally go through a 4 year apprenticeship program where as the non-union don't.
It should've been communicated in that manner. It wasn't. We reserve the right to still consider him to be a total bonehead.
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Wookie
Now that's what I call the way forward. I'll admit that the labor union had its place. However, that place is now gone. Compare the pay and education of the average UAW worker to that of the rest of the country with the same education. From the UAW web site, in 2004 the UAW employees made $10.80/hr more than non-union. So taking an average benefit of $10.80/hr, 10.80*40*52 = $22,464/employee $22,464*80,000 = $1,797,120,000 or nearly 1.8 BILLION extra payed in 2004. That assumes that the union vs. non-union employees are equal. In my personal experience non-union employees typically work harder than union employees so the actual cost could be much higher.
Let's take this a step further. CNN Money lists Ford's 2004 losses as $1.4 billion. So the argument could be made that if it wasn't for union employees Ford would have made $400 million. If we really want to take this up another notch. I could point out that the 80,000 number is after 20,000-30,000 jobs have been cut. So realistically an additional 25% could be added to the cost of union employees.
In my work experience auto industry employees ain't worth a damn. They are lazy, perform shoddy work at best and spend more time griping about how they are being cheated than doing their job. So yes, cutting the union out could be a great thing for Ford. Just my non-union dues paying $.02.
Joe
Let's take this a step further. CNN Money lists Ford's 2004 losses as $1.4 billion. So the argument could be made that if it wasn't for union employees Ford would have made $400 million. If we really want to take this up another notch. I could point out that the 80,000 number is after 20,000-30,000 jobs have been cut. So realistically an additional 25% could be added to the cost of union employees.
In my work experience auto industry employees ain't worth a damn. They are lazy, perform shoddy work at best and spend more time griping about how they are being cheated than doing their job. So yes, cutting the union out could be a great thing for Ford. Just my non-union dues paying $.02.
Joe
I know of people with masters degrees working on the assembly lines.
The problem is not with the workers, it's with lousy management, buying the cheapest parts, not building the products people want, absolutely no satisfaction from the dealerships.