Hi all - my 2005 F150 5.4l 3V keeps rattling on startup only - goes away when oil pressure builds up. I have been in the engine 3 times now. Replaced the phasers and complete timing set first time. Second time, rattle started and one of the new phasers went out - replaced phaser and re-timed. Last time, rattle started up again and I opened the engine and replaced the stock tensioners (plastic) with after marker cast iron ratchet style tensioners. The darn thing still rattles on start up! I noticed when timing the engine and manually turning the crank that the slack in the chain seemed to be between the phaser and the crank sprocket on the OPPOSITE side of the tensioner. So I am at a loss for what to do! Rattle is loud for 3 secs until pressure build then engine is quiet and runs great. How can I have slack when the after marker tensioners have ratchets that don't allow backing off when sitting cold? Weird - I know.

 

What exact oil and filter are you using?

 

Mobile 1 5w-20 full Syn and Motorcraft filter

 

asbennett, since you've started a new thread here and are already getting responses, I deleted the post on this subject you placed in the old thread.

Duplicate posts lead to confusing responses that can waste your time.

- Jack

 

Thank you

 

A little history on the repair may help. What was the reason you changed out the phasers in the first place. Was other work done on this engine prior to developing a rattle or is the rattle a issue since another repair was performed like a new cyl head,etc? Are you certain that the chains are causing the rattle and not the lash adjusters which are under the cam covers? Please include any other repairs you have recently performed on the engine prior to the rattle starting. Also did you remove the "grenade" pins from the new cast tensioners that hold the tensioner piston contained?

 

The reason I changed the phasers in the first place was they had the normal tick at warm idle. This problem has gone away since the new phasers were installed.

No other work was done on the engine.

I am "mostly" certain that the noise is the chain rattle, it is loud and goes away when the oil psi is up (about 3 secs after start).

Yes I did remove the grenade pins and the chain was snug at the tensioner point.

When the front timing cover was off and I installed the new tensioners and retimed the engine, turning the crank by hand I would notice at certain times the chain would really slack between the phaser and the crank opposite side that the tensioners were on.

Anyway - this is still happening and really driving me crazy (and seems to be getting worse) any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

When you are rotating the engine by hand during the timing process the chains can and will go slack at certain spots. One other thing is to make certain that the noise is not one of the pulleys or belt tensioner bearings going out. remove the serp belt and listen for the noise to be absent while belt is off. Another concern is that the HDR wheel that fits on the crankshaft behind the front cover was replaced in the correct orientation the teeth must be facing forward or they will hit the timing chain and generate a loud noise that sounds like the chain slapping. Don't mean to sound like I doubt your definition of the problem however sometimes we get a certain idea in our minds and fail to look at other potential problems that may be making the noise. Good luck

 

These are great questions and I appreciate everyone's feedback.
The noise sounds like someone threw a hand full of rocks at the front of the engine right when you crank the engine to start. The noise goes away completely in about 3 seconds at the exact same time I see the oil pressure gauge come up to normal.

Based on the fact that the noise is rapid and loud and goes away immediately when the engine starts, I have to assume it is not the pulleys or the HDR.

I am open to any ideas and more suggestions - I just need this to go away =)
I went down the path that if my oil pressure was bleeding off, then ratchet cast iron tensioners should stop this. It did not stop it.

 

I agree with you regarding your observation of oil pressure and noise correlation.
sounds like oil is draining back out of the oil system somewhere. I know you are using a Motorcraft oil filter. Is it the only filter you have had on the engine since this noise/condition started? If so try changing the filter did you remove the oil pan pickup tube at any point? if so were you careful to make sure the "0" ring was in place where the tube inserts into the oil pump.

 

So a new symptom appeared today. The rattle was a bit louder when starting today and now the truck idles rough and dies with code P0340. I have chased this problem before. I suspect the timing is off one tooth or that there may be a problem with the cam phasers and the timing. It is not the sensor as I have been down that road before. When this happened before and I opened up the front of the engine to retime and replace the tensioners, I hoped this was the end. Something is causing the rattle and then the timing to be off. I know this is tough and I have read 100s of post on phasers, timing tooth jump, and rattle at start up (seems to be a common problem) and as stated in the original post, I replaced and serviced all the timing parts. I must be missing something - I need everyone to give me any thing I can test or try please. Thank you

 

Code p0340 is cam position sensor bank one as you know. If this was me at this point I would be pulling the cam covers and then the front cover and inspecting everything. Anything look damaged or loose etc. If a finger follower is off or loose then you need to perform a leakdown test or compression test. This is not that difficult to figure out but you need to get a visual on the internals of your valve train and timing. I would personally retime it to be sure... at least that is my opinion. Hopefully others will step in and give you some other ideas. sounds like something may be loose in the vct setup. Don't let this get to you just think it through and methodically examine all components the answer is there you just have to find it. Have confidence in yourself and your abilities. You'll get it.

 

Dynotech- thank you for your encouragement. It came at the right time. So let me bounce something off you and get some feedback. First, I think I need more data as you mentioned to make a good diagnosis. I am going to install a T and mechanical oil gauge to check the operating PSI. Remember this engine has 220K miles on it. So if the warm idle psi is low. How do I know what component is causing the lie psi? Pump? Worn bearing? Etc? Final question of the day, the last time I opened the front of the engine and installed the cast iron ratcheting timing tensioners, I mounted them on the block with no gasket or sealant material ( I assumed this was correct). Should I have used any sealant or gasket between the cast iron tensioner and the mating surface of the block? The stock plastic tensioners had a built in gasket - these cast iron ratchet ones did not.

 

Your last question first. No you do not use sealer or gasket on the cast tensioners so you are ok there. The only reason the plastic tensioners had gaskets was because of politics from upper Ford managment. There was never a viable reason to warrant it. Parasitic oil loss is almost nonexistent from them.
You don't mention a rod knock so I doubt there is an oil pressure problem from the bearings. The rattling noise on startup and now a rough idle seem to be your primary concern. Whenever you get a loud noise like you are having there should be a visible reason for that. I still think something has come loose maybe in the VCT components or the fastening of those components. Did you check the oil pan pickup tube screen for blockage. Any shredded or broken nylon from the chain guides will drop directly into the oil pan and partially block that screen and generate obviously low oil pressure and starvation.
Don't be concerned about asking questions here there are a lot of really good techs and others with a ton of experience that will step up and give you ideas. It only takes one of us to hit on something to solve this.

 

UPDATE: Ok so I opened up the engine again. Found the passenger side Cam Phaser was completely broken (spring was off and was spinning loose). Chain had broken 2 of the timing guides on that same side. Reminder that this is the 2nd time I had replaced these phasers using after market (O'Reily parts). So I took the phasers back and now ordered OEM Ford phasers from Livernois with the lockouts installed. I need help on two things: 1. I am worried that the phaser failing caused the timing to be so far off that the engine is damaged - how can I tell or test? 2. Since there were broken guide parts, I need to drop the oil pan - How can I drop the pan (4X4 model) without dropping the front axle? Finally - should I replace the oil pump while I have the engine open since there is 220K miles on it? Thanks and the story continues.