WOO HOO, you said it, you said it

Ok I forgive you, ah ha ha ha
What I was trying to say D "in my Rob always goes around the block before pulling in the driveway kind of way", is if you look at the numbers, we CLEARLY DID GAIN 100HP and 100 ft lbs of TQ, RIGHT WHERE YOU WANT IT TOO. People (including me) only sometimes look at the peak numbers, but they DO NOT tell the story. What I was also TRYING to say was considering we did get the FULL 100HP "and by feeding it less fuel", I really thought that was pretty good, not pathetic.

 

Hey Rob, you might want to consider direct port injection instead of spraying ahead of the supercharger.

The Top guys whom I have worked with who boost and spray use direct port injection and typicly gain a lot more power then they would if naturally aspirated. In other words if they are spraying 150hp they gain 200 hp.

The reason being when spraying ahead of the supercharger the liquid expands to gas ahead of the supercharger so the supercharger has to compress it back down again which takes work. When sprayed after the supercharger the liquid expands and cools the air charge but the supercharger does not have to compress it.

Think about it. Why spray ahead of the supercharger at atmospheric pressure so the supercharger has to compress it again????? If you spray directly into the intake runners the liquid expands to a gas and you don’t have to compress it. When you think about it it's kind of a no brainer.

Charles

 

X marks the spot and the Drill comes out and it's done ; o )
I'll drill the SOB right into the SC case if I have to, Opps did I say that out loud

Just point and I'll do the rest

 

Charles,
We agree but it's not that simple on a Lightning for the average guy. We knew a single point injector had it's limitations ahead of the s/c and intercooler but until enough guys with different combinations try something it was hard to say. On top of that we never knew people like Rob would want so much boost on top of all the nitrous. Applications started of with 4 lb pullies and 50-75 shots. Now we see 18-20lbs of boost and 100-150 shots. For now not having an L of mine own to work with I am limited on how soon we can figure this out. We pretty much know the answers as explained but people still want to see numbers and they will come eventually.

We are testing this winter on a set-up under the s/c to at least get rid of one restriction and then just deal with the intercooler. A true direct port would be a huge project and very few people would go through the trouble but I would love to see the results if anyone does it.

 

Rob if it makes you happy to use my words out of context then run with it.

You can't just tap the bottom of the blower as you need multiple injectors under the blower to be angled now for proper distribution.

 

An aluminum spacer between the blower and lower manifold with sleeved injector holes might be just the ticket.

 

Rob, keep the drill away from that Mag!!!

The best way to do it is an injector on each intake runner, that would be 8 and I know this is the budget beast.

Air exits the charger near the front of the “V” shaped exit port not along the sides like most people think. So if you have only one injector drill and tap the intercooler casting that the charger bolts to right in the center behind the alternator so the injector is pointing up toward the charger’s exit port so the charger’s exit air and the nos injector blow at each other.

That should do it, as the fuel/nos should be mixed up well with the charger’s exit air. Run it a bit rich at first until you are sure there are no distribution issues.

Charles

 

Denny, with all due respect, these systems just aren't working well on these trucks. They may work great on motorcycles and 4 bangers, but they aren't working good on Lightnings. When I first started talking to you, I voiced my opinions on some things that needed to be address on your kits. Nothing since then has changed (which is why I decided to not sell your kits) and every customer I have that's used your system has had poor results. You've come on here and blamed everything but the kit itself. We don't have any of these problems with any other brand of kit, even the crappy ones, and they all make the power they are supposed to.

Here is what I feel needs to be address on the Racetested kits, to make them "Lightning friendly"....

- Change the nozzle. The current nozzle is a crude part, and has poor atomization compared to the NX, NOS, and even the ZEX nozzles. It's also too short to plumb it in a decent fashion. I think that much of the power is lost in poor spray and hitting intake parts instead of being injested into the motor. I would bet that if someone ran your kit through an NX Shark nozzle, it would perform great.

- Bottle heater. The system needs a heater. I don't care what size the lines are and how they affect pressure. The system needs a heater. With a 10 lb bottle, after spraying a 100-150 shot, you are going to drop a good 50-70 psi of bottle pressure after a full pass. If left like that, the next pass would not produce the same power. I've proved that with both Mark and Rob's trucks this past weekend.

- Purge solenoid. You need one. Again, no matter the line size, you're going to have air in the lines that needs purging before a pass. On Mark's truck, when I installed his filled bottle, the nitrous barely did anything on the first pull. I pulled the line from the solenoid and activeated the system, and had another 2-3 seconds of air before nitrous started flowing. At the track, that would have been a wasted run.

- The lines. You need to lose the plastic lines. I don't care how well they work. I don't like them, customers don't like them, and track tech guys don't like them. If you feel you need to use such small lines, supply some -3 braided lines with the kits. Too many people have had the plastic lines blow off or leak.

- Jetting. You need to do more R&D on jetting sizes for the Lightnings. Your current jet setups probably work fine for NA vehicles. But on the Lightning, with 55-60 psi of fuel pressure at WOT, the fuel jets are just way too rich. On Mark's truck, I stepped down one size on the fuel with a 100 shot, and got a nice A/F. On Rob's truck, I did the same on the 100 shot, and on the 150 shot I had to step down 2 sizes to get an A/F that didn't peg the dyno rich. This is not unique to your kits, I see this on all brands.

As for using nitrous on these vehicles, there is no issue with spraying through the blower. While it is true that some of the charge is lost in the blower, that lost charge is cooling the blower and the air charge, so you gain the power back.

I know that you have a great knowledge of nitrous. And you probably know thngs about nitrous that I do not. But I have been doing nitrous on Lightnings since 2000, and I was the pioneer in Gen 2 Lightning performance. I know what works. I don't care about this theory or that theory, I have done most of it and I know what works and what doesn't. I had run both single nozzles and direct port setups on my 01. I have made insane amounts of power with other conventional nitrous systems. You came to this board trashing all other brands and saying how much better your setup is, and that has yet to be proven. I have customers that took off my PSP/NX system, that has worked for so many years, to put on your kit because of how much "better" you claimed it to be. Not one of them that I know of has matched the performance of the NX setup with your setup yet.

If you want your kits to work with these trucks, stop blaming the trucks and change the kit. You can take my advice or not. Just trying to help.

 

A really great place to put 8 nozzles is from the bottom side of the manifold.
If you pull the manifold and turn it over you can drill each port from the bottom.....I figure 8 of the Glidden/Edelbrock nozzles oughta do it

 

Has anyone tried this setup. Its Holleys EFI Noszel system. It plugs under your injector and has two ports for fuel and nitrous.

 

Sal you couldnt be more wrong on every point and you telling me I am making excuses is an insult that I dont take lightly. Your bull**** comments about 4 bangers and motorcylces doesn't even make sense. How does nitrous know what motor it's on? If a kit is rated for 50 hp it is going to make clsoe to this on a 12 cylinder or 2 cylinder depending on the specs. Don't forget that Europe has plenty of 12 cylinder cars also that love the kit. Maybe you would like to read a heads up comparison between NX and our kit by an independent on a Lightning.
http://www.noswizard.com/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=970


1) Injector- What does the short design have to do with atomization? Our injector has the widest spray pattern on the market and the ONLY one that sprays across the fuel and doesn't shroud the fuel in a cone design like the other injectors. This is part of that hard hit lean out you feel with other kits as the nitrous always gets to the cylinder first until the fuel catches up and starts to mix. We have instant mixing and atomization. Can you explain what nitrous credentials you have besides installing to tell us to change injector designs?

2) We plan on offering a bottle heater but its not a huge concern for us. Highpower cares more about making the main components and not accessories like heaters that can be bought from anyone and offer similar results.

3) We do have a purge solenoid. I guess you have not looked at our site? You are wrong that any line needs one. Again you are speaking from what experience? Can you explain very consistant times with our nylon line including all Robs 11.8 and 11.9 runs with no purge not including all our other customers? Rob has a braided line now and he knows he needs a purge. Don't blame me that one is not fitted.

4) You must know more than me about customers not liking the plastic lines. I actually offer black sleeving to cover them and customers tell me they like the look and leave the lines bare. The also like the easier install. Our manual says to heat protect the main high pressure nitrous line. Have you ever heard of the lines blowing from the pusloids to injector, Fuel line? NO

Plus if the main line is blowing then this tells you the area is to hot which is costing performance. Braided would give no signs and you could be giving up performance and not even know it. Our goal is to build the most efficient nitrous system and braided lines are not it. Read our tech section on braided for more information.

What does a track inspector know about how to build a proper nitrous system.

5) What is your point about jets? You say all brands have issues. We don't know what every application is going to be and that's why we start off with a SAFE 2:1 ratio. We provide extra fuel jets so what's the problem?

6) You promote NX yet I saw the vieo of the NX kit blowing your hood off. is this part of their greater power. Our kit doesn't need to be changed as it is the only kit with so much R&D invested. You keep mentioning our problems yet we have thousands of customer that will say differently. You also mention all your nitorus experience but have you ever created, designed, or manufactured a nitrous part yet alone a full kit?

I now what the kit can do as it's very proven and will sort out the 2-3 trucks that you worked on.

 

Your right the direct port way is the best way on a Lightning motor and I believe you have great nitrous numbers to prove it.

 

I'm not going to argue with you Denny. You obviously didn't read anything
I wrote.

 

- The lines. You need to lose the plastic lines. I don't care how well they work. I don't like them, customers don't like them, and track tech guys don't like them. If you feel you need to use such small lines, supply some -3 braided lines with the kits. Too many people have had the plastic lines blow off or leak. [/QUOTE]

i for one can agree with Sal on this issue.. i saw first hand and physically watched with my own two eyes, as Rob turned on his bottles, the plastic lines blew right off the truck.. any real racer knows plastic lines are *****, its like having plastic fuel lines instead of working with "quality parts" such as using the braided lines.. after watching that happen to Robs truck that day at the track i would never ever buy one of your kits, and i know for a fact niether will the 10 other guys that were standing there either..it is sad to see someone spend all that money on a setup like that and not be able to use it because the maker of the kit used ***** plastic lines,i would listen to the tuners especially Sal take his advice, it will only help your setup become more effective in the aftermarket industry..

 

I have to agree with Richie. I was there. I wasn't impressed.


FF