Now you guys are just butting heads. This argument has been around for over 2000 years and y'all have clearly shown this thread wont be the end of it by playing the "burden of proof" hot potato game. I move we take a recess until further evidence can be presented in favor of either argument.

 

I just feel I need to add one more thought to mans explanation of the beginnings of the universe. Keep in mind I am a Christian, but not as most Churches would classify one.
But The God of the Islams, The God of the Jewish, and The God of the Christians, and the same God. The descendants of Isaac and Ishmael, are one and the same. He is the God of Abraham.

Back to the Science of creation. There is the CERN and the LHC. These people think they are finding the beginning of the universe, and creating dark matter.
What they are doing however is giving atoms the opposite charge of their natural state, and colliding them together, and observing the results. They believe they are creating dark matter. What they are doing is similar to stripping electrons off of atoms and storing them in lead bars and then letting them return to their natural state, like what we do to a battery. What they are doing is much more complex but similar in aspect. Now they want to build a strait line collider to smash electrons together.
But as I stated in the other thread, when I was referred to as crazy. They are not looking in the right places for what is missing. I do not believe they are headed in the right direction with their studies. I have no PHD, so who am I to argue. I'm a nobody, but I study the subject very carefully.
First scientist say a big boom created our expanding universe. Now they say Dark Matter is pushing it apart. They need to get together with one answer of creation, ya think
Its kind of like ducks. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

One more loony sounding off.

 

Interresting topic you bring up Tumba, science is always changing. People think science is rock solid, unbreakable. Completely not true. Scientific theories are constantly being proven wrong so that new, more accurate ones can be formed. Remember when the earth was flat? That was a scientific fact...until it was proven wrong. Science can be proven wrong, that is the beauty of the system, it is malleable to fit new discoveries by building on older ones that remain true. The source of conflict is what is considered "reliable evidence."

For example, I have gotten this story emailed to me in text, slide show and video form many times but I'll summarize it. A college professor who is a devoted atheist preaches every semester to his college students that god doesn't exist. Every year for the final exam he asks his students if any of them still believe god exists. Then he takes a piece of chalk and says "If god really exists then he will not let this chalk break." He then drops it and guess what happens? It breaks, he concludes that god does not exist. The turning point of the story is one student stands up in his class and says they still believe in god. The professor tells him to watch, but this time when he drops the chalk it rolls off his sleeve, to his pants, shoes, ground...and doesn't break. Believers consider this story as "evidence" that god exists and non believers make poorly based conclusions on the matter. Non believers consider it either just another bedtime story or a coincidence. Until we decide on what is worthy evidence this little argument will go on without accomplishing anything besides wearing out our keyboards.

I'm not going to get deeply involved until humanity can settle this little issue because then we are all arguing on relatively deaf ears. I just thought 98_green was being an azz for making a biased blanket statement for a group of sovereign people based on experience of a few jerks that were probably toying with him anyway just so they could laugh later.

 

You're correct, I was making a bias, blanketed statement against the 'soverign' group of people. I'm not politically correct. And no, it was a little more serious than you think. You've got your head in the sand if you think this isn't a problem. Islamic leaders have come out and openly stated, for centuries, that the extermination of Christians is necessary. True muslims believe this, even if they don't openly admit it.

 

Prople all over the World celebrated the day the towers fell. But yet we still support the efforts of the rest of the World that wants to destroy us.

 

So Religion has evolved just as science has evolved. As our awareness has evolved so has religion. But as science does, it is in different directions and rates of speed.

 

What is the definition of a true muslim?

Green, you guys (meaning christian's) can't even agree on what a true christian is. I've been involved in these threads for years just like many of you, and I have seen the bickering among christian's who can't even agree on what to believe, which bible to use etc.

Someone who murders an abortion doctor feels just as much of a true christian as you do. but we can agree there is a difference right?

In Islam there is no church hierarchy no priests, ministers, vicars, deans, or popes. When a Muslim prays he prays directly to God not through any intermediary.

There really are no "muslm leaders", they have these imans or whatever who act as volunteer to help more inexperienced muslims interpret the Qur'an.

This is where the danger lies, in the interpretation.

Am I saying there are no muslims who want to hurt us? No, there are many but they are not true muslims. A true muslim will be your neighbor, your friend, your brother, your sister, and will never hurt you.

I have many muslim friends. it's not like they act one way to your face but then have secret meetings at night where they discuss how they ant wait to kill you.

People are people the world over, you have good and bad in everything but you cant lump everyone together.

As far as crazy god-worshippers go, Tumba would be top on my list.
Sure I think he's a nut for believing in all that hocus pocus nonsense, but I also know that he has such a good and sincere heart, and deep down he is a decent human being. I've seen people on these boards tell him how he is not a "true christian", although if you ask him he wont agree.

Just because he doesnt read the KJB 4th deluxe edition with gold painted leaf, signed personally by jesus christ himself, people will say hes not a 'true christian', give it a break already, lol
Maybe he lost his certificate of authenticity

I'm sure the nut who blew up the govt building in OK thought he was a true christian as well.

Like I said, a true muslim will never do anything to hurt you and will only be a brother and a friend to you, but before you realize this, you have to stop lumping everyone in together otherwise the only thing uour doing is a diservice to yourself and others by speading hate and false information.

Not everyone is bad, if you believe that then you're half way there.

Peace

 

Well said!

I was raised Catholic but view myself as Christian. The machine of the Catholic church can get in the way of my relationship with Christ. Being Christian covers a lot of religions but the common denominator is Christ.

 

Habibi, I agree with you. Some people get too caught up in religion and 'church' and forget what the focus is. I only go to church to hear the sermon, study the Word of God in Sunday School, and Bible study. I focus on God's Word, not everything else that surrounds it. Many many people spend their whole lives in 'church' and completely miss this point and it's a shame.

My overarching point is this: We allow a mosque to be built in America because we are 'loving, tollerant, free and accepting' people. It's highly unlikely that a muslim going into this new mosque is going to be dragged through the streets of NYC, have his fingers cut off, beaten beyond recognition, and then strung up by his neck and burned to death.
Now, what do you think would happen if I wanted to build a Baptist church in Iran? What would happen to a Christian white man, walking the streets of Bagdhad wearing a t-shirt and carrying a Bible? Probably would not survive long.

Non-believers hold these 2 religions on the same level, and they are not. How many Christian car-bombers, suicide bombers, do you hear of?
Both religions are 'religons of peace' right? Overall, who walks the walk?

 

Green does have a good point about the differences there Habs.
Just last month, it was in the news about a woman in Iran that had committed adultery. Her punishment, was what the Koran called for. She was to be buried up to her chest in the ground, and then stoned to death. The Iranian Government stayed her execution because of the press it was getting through out the world.
If I read that news report right, her husband was already dead. So she was a widow that had sex.

 

You're right, and that's because Iran is ruled by a tyrannical dictator who suppresses his people and pushes his political agenda of hate onto the rest of us who despise him.

That right there is what makes America such a great country to live in, because you can believe whatever you want, and live your life in peace.

Just because I'm not a fan of religion doesn't mean I don't appreciate democracy and what it means. I also know people hate us for that freedom, and for that I am guilty of lumping religion into the same kettle of fish.

The Iranian leader wants to keep his people suppressed and under control at all times. Keep the minions stupid and it's easy to get them to do what you want.

Of course you couldn't build a Baptist church in Iran, just like I probably couldn't live there and share my opinion that believing in God is a big crock of BS.

They would probably string both of us to the same pole.

With that said, America and countries "like" America who share a common democracy are better than these places like Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, and all these other chitholes that keep their people suppressed and stupid.

Saying "Well, If I can't build a church in Iran, then I don't want them to build their mosque here", that's not really fitting. You're looking at it from a "Life has to be fair" point of view, and the first thing your teacher at college should have done is told you that life is not fair. Period.

We have no control where we are born, and I am truly thankful and appreciative of the fact I wasn't born in some cave in Afghanistan where my only role model would be some "hater" telling me how bad the west is, and how we should murder them all in the name of Allah.

I don't care how much mental fortitude you think you have, there's no escaping that hell of a life if you were unlucky enough to be born there (at the wrong place at the wrong time)

I was born and raised by wonderful parents, as I am sure you were too.
They raised me as best they could, I didn't have a molesting uncle, I didn't have a drunken dad who beat my *** every night. There was always food on the table and I had clean warm clothes to wear.

Of course I realize how lucky I am, but I also don't think I'm better than my counterpart in Haiti who is walking the streets in search of his next meal because he has nothing.

I know I'm blabbering man, but so many of us put ourselves on such a high pedestal and turn our noses down at others, and the truth is there's no fairness to life.

I know the people who promote the ideology of the Taliban are wrong (and people like them), but all this hate is such a problem, I think taking the higher ground is what separates us from them.

As far as letting them build a mosque at ground Zero, forget it.
I think they should build a new set of towers, bigger and better than the original, and have a park/memorial to the victims between them.

This would show the world that just because you got knocked down, you got right back up and landed on your feet.

 

We're agreeing more all the time man. Im actually a very humble person, grew up in a solid family environment, and just because I'm doing alright doesnt make me worth more than any terrorist on the planet. In my eyes, God created us all and we all all equal humans, Americans, Taliban members, whoever. But that's where it ends. Its the mortal decisions that set us apart.

I will stand beside you in protest of this mosque man, it's just outrageous that this is even being discussed, let alone approved by our government officials. Sad day, and its only been 9 years since 9/11

 

I take that to mean that even though a person might have a crappy upbringing, we as human beings still have an inner compass that guides us as far as right and wrong is concerned, so yeah, I'm down for that.

Some people attribute that inner compass to some divine intervention or whatever, I'll just call mine a conscience.

 

Religious "true" believers often seem to have no way or desire to distinguish between their own self-serving desires and "God's Will."

Slavery in the past was "God's Will." They also knew that it was "God's Will" that humans not be allowed to use contraception. Recently, many knew it was "God's will" that the Equal Rights Amemndment be defeated, which, with their help, it was in 1982.

Today they know that it's "God's Will" that women not be allowed to abort, or that Gays not be allowed equal rights. And so they are currently working very hard to undermine abortion rights and laws which protect against Gay discrimination.

Some even know that the United States is "God's chosen country" and that it is "God's will" that we build newer and better weapons so that "God's Country" will remain the strongest in the world.

Another individual besides Galileo, Benjamin Franklin was also accused of going against "God's Will". About 250 years ago, most religions still knew that lightning was "a heavenly manifestation of God's displeasure." So when Franklin, as a result of his famous kite and key experiment, invented the lightning rod, he was vilified by most Christian denominations and his invention was called "heretical rod".

The irony was that churches with their high steeples were most susceptible to lightning. It took some bad fires and another 50 years before churches began to quietly install lighting rods. Once again, the minds of humans had learned a new way to thwart "God's wrath" for the benefit of all.

When anesthesia was first discovered in the 1840s, religious leaders and many religious medical authorities condemned its use in childbirth since the Bible said women must bear children in pain. That was "God's Will." Since this seemed rather heartless of God, it was explained that God knew what he was doing because new-born infants would instinctively know that they weren't truly loved by their mothers, if these mothers had not suffered in childbirth. But the so-called authorities thought it best to change their minds when Queen Victoria, head of the Church of England, chose to use anesthesia during childbirth.

As time goes by and we're confronted with death, pain, and all of the human emotions, the big question will continue to be ask: "Why am I here?" Do we live in a purposeless universe where humans are here essentially by accident and with no cosmic purpose, or has this universe been deliberately created by some cosmic designer for the evolution of life, of consciousness and possibly even of us? Or are there other possibilities?

In the end, although the scientific evidence so far has seriously weekended th foundations of many of the world's religions, science has been incapable of ultimately disproving the existence of some kind of grand intelligence behind all this. So it truly does biol down to question of faith.

Life on earth has been like a 3.5 billion year old cosmic poker game with new players continuously competing with the old, leaving only the "best" and occasionally the "luckiest". Against what looks like incredible odds to some and possible inevitable to others, we have evolved.

So here we are, the product of an amazing long natural selection experiment. We are all sitting at this cosmic game with possibly no greater purpose than to keep playing. Yet, we don't know the name or object of this game, or if it's even a game. We also don't know the rules, or if there are any rules or what the score is, or if there are any rules, or even a score keeper.

Finally, we don't know when the game will end, or if it does end! Yet, it's the only game in town, whether or not to enjoy it. Since we all have to play, perhaps we may as well enjoy it. Certainly, all thinking people would want to understand it.....or would they?

By the way thanks for criticizing me Tumba, all I can say is

 

Why go to the middle east and try to do that? How about you try to build a Christian church in your own backyard, to preach of loving every body no matter the color, say in the KKK community. What would happen to you? Now mind you they are Christians in America who are heavily protected when they go out to preach their belief system.