YOU sir, are the c0ckyest S.O.B. I have ever encountered on this forum.......what in the hell does this entire paragraph have to do with my thread?......how ironic that YOU are the one crying about being attacked personally........no one gives a rat's a$s about your financial accomplishments....no matter what your age.....as far as we know....you are just another trust fund baby out in Cali.......and in all honesty.....the way you are presenting youself in this debate does not help your case......grow up.....be a man and learn to debate without pointing your nose to the sky.........

 

Please tell me that you say this in jest, or that you're just adding fuel to the fire.

If you don't like the rules you live by under this government, then leave. I'm sure that you'll be more then capable of finding a better place out there. Doesn't get much simpler than that.


I hope for you and your families sake that that never happens. But appearantly you welcome that with open arms. That is sad. I bet a whole lot of New Yorkers who lost loved ones wanted to kill them back, but who will they kill? It's not a neighbor who made a lewd comment about your wife, ,and you walk next door and take his head off... But if you or your family have the means to arm yourselves, fly to Iraq, or Iran, or wherever, and start a war, feel free to do so. I'm sure that since you aren't restrained be the same ROE that our boys over there are now, you'll fare much better against the sucide bombers and buried roadsied IED's.

 

Actually that would be anti-American. The American way to handle the issue would be to protest and vote to change what he doesn't like. Leaving is a cop-out.


And I agree with his first statements....fundamental and Constitutional rights are more important than safety.

Consider this....what was the safe thing to do in the late 1700s...

Fight the super-power of the world at the time or revolt against the king for nothing more than a guarantee to be free?

 

I really don't give a sh^t what your opinion is, and you are welcome to post it all over this site if you want! I'm certainly not going to take advice from a punk kid that probably has no idea what life is even about yet.

I love my children, and my grandchildren, and would take a bullet for any of them without a second thought, but I am not going to give up my rights, or theirs for safety's sake.

I feel bad for those that were impacted in New York in 2001, but I also feel bad for those killed in car crashes daily, those that die from cancer, etc....It is part of life, learn to deal with it, but don't think I have to give up my rights to make you feel "safe".

 

Running from the problem solves nothing. Freedom first, 'safety' second.


[QUOTE]I hope for you and your families sake that that never happens. But appearantly you welcome that with open arms. That is sad.

What is sad is that you would willingly give up your rights to 'feel' safe.


Doing so would make us 'terrorists' according to the US State Department, I'd rather avoid that list.

 

Easy Hoss, I know what you are saying and how you feel, but this is still a pretty good thread. Lets not send it to the bitbucket for crudeness and personal attacks. This is a passionate issue and we should discuss it like adults.

 

Leaving is not a cop-out. He is in the minority, otherwise protest and voting would have changed the rules by now...

Vadar, you're an intelligent guy. Have you ever read Johnny Got His Gun, by Dalton Trumbo? Everyone talks about their freedom and rights and all this crap, it's useless idealism. What's important is the right to life. While I don't by any means think that this should be a socialist or communist state, how far is too far? Everyone in America has these rights, and what do we use them for? To rape, murder, steal ? To sit back on a lazy behind and have others pay for your housing, food, and cocaine habit? Are those the rights you want to fight for?

And the comparison to the Revolution is off base. Those people had to fight in order to live. The British govn't was taking all their money in taxes, and people were starving.

 

If you don't want an opinion, don't post in a public forum. I'm not giving advice to you, sir, just merely pointing out how sophmoric your statements sound. As for me being a punk kid, well, I've given 9 years (and counting) of my life the the US military. You don't have to take a bullet for you kids or grand kids, because I will. And pray tell me, what rights have you given up? Which right do you place more emphasis on, the right to not have illegal search and seizure, or the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

 

The idea behind protesting would be to gain support and while voting may not result in victory for your idea it certainly shows disagreement.

I have not read the book. I'd add it to my list but I have a half a dozen piled up right now.

I couldn't disagree more. Idealism is what built this country and made it great. Belief in morals and ideals greater than one's own life is what is important. I know I sound like a broken record but without freedom and rights nothing else matters to me. Those in Cuba have a right to life and are probably safer than we are...so where would you rather live?

I don't believe it is that off base when comparing freedom to safety and security. Sure the king was taxing them heavily, but do you think it added up to more than what we pay today based on percentage? Not hardly.

They couldn't stand the controlling and in their view vindictive king. They could have remained quiet, paid their taxes and remained protected by the most powerful gov't of the time. That was the safe thing to do.

Instead they declared independence, citing life, liberty and the pursuit of property/happiness as their reasons. Not safety. They were leaving themselves open to attack from not only Britain but possibly France, Spain, or local Indians in the future. They risked everything they had for a chance to simply control their own destiny rather than be controlled.


They chose freedom over safety. I do the same.

 

If being intelligent and understanding how this country was designed and set up to run makes one a minority then I guess I am one. It's not as simple as going out and voting. The sheeple scream for the politicians to do something, anything just to feel better or safer. When what they do goes against the laws of the land and our founding principles I take issue with it.

Ho - lee - chit. You just said in so many words that our rights are crap and that this country is usless idealism. What are you serving to protect? The right to feel safe? I'm not sure what oath of enlistment you took but mine said

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


What is important is to live free, life without Libery is worthless. How far is too far? When they start infringing upon my rights is too far. I'm not scared of the boogey man or terrorists, I'm scared of our elected 'representatives'.

It is not off base. The crown was unjustly taking what did not belong to them. The people here in the colonies could have resorted to subsistence farming to survive. What they did though was take a stand for what was right. The right to be free and to control their own destiny. That is something that must be forever guarded or it will be lost.

 

Dump the Patriot Act because it isn't.....As for your military time, good for you, I put in 7.5 years probably before you were born. I'll take the bullets if they come my way, I don't need you to take them for me. Military service has been voluntary since the 70s. I'm glad you are there, but you are there because you chose it. Don't expect me to feel obligated to give something up because you are choosing to be on the line.....

 

I don't want anything for my service. It was my choice. The military reference was so that you'd know that you're not dealing with, as you so eloquently put it, "some punk kid". And I thank you for your service.

Now, in having all of these rights, if the next time your grandkids go to a football game, and the stadium is blown up by terrorists, what then. That's just life, deal with it???
If security wasn't important, why are there police? Why don't the politicians line their pockets a little more rather than fund police departments? I'm sure that you support your local police (and I'm not trying to be a smarta$$).

What seperates, and who decides, what rights we have? If I did drink alcohol, (which I don't, at least not much), and enjoyed driving down the highway in the wrong lane at 70 mph, what right does the govn't have to take that right away from me? Hell, if I want to do that stone sober, it's my right, right?


You don't own the telephone companies, you're using their medium to have your conversation. Does that not give them to right to say how you can use it? If they want to monitor it to decide if it's being used according to their terms, they have that right. Same for e-mail. I don't understand how that's infringing on your rights. Unless you're a terrorist or associated party, what do you care, really?

 

Now, in having all of these rights, if the next time your grandkids go to a football game, and the stadium is blown up by terrorists, what then. That's just life, deal with it???
If security wasn't important, why are there police? Why don't the politicians line their pockets a little more rather than fund police departments? I'm sure that you support your local police (and I'm not trying to be a smarta$$).

If the terrorists hit the local stadium, and my grandkids are there, then I deal with it. That IS life, not that I would be happy about it, but then I would deal with it.

What seperates, and who decides, what rights we have? If I did drink alcohol, (which I don't, at least not much), and enjoyed driving down the highway in the wrong lane at 70 mph, what right does the govn't have to take that right away from me? Hell, if I want to do that stone sober, it's my right, right?

I'll tell you who, or what decides what rights we have....The Constitution! If that needs to be changed, then let's go through the process and change it, or leave it alone and get rid of these "acts" that are an attempt to circumvent the process.

 

Yet, when thousands are killed in a terrorist attack, who gets the blame?


What I meant was not that our countries ideals are crap, but the way that people use them for excuses to get away with stuff is crap. No matter what wrong that they're doing, they'll take and twist everything in the Constitution and DOI to make it suit their needs. People hide behind these documents too much. What's right and wrong doesn't matter anymore, it's who's interepiting it and for what purpose. The true nature and intent are not served, and the false interpetations are given off as ideals, and are crap.

Haven't you heard anything I've said? You've already given up rights... In oder to live in a society were you have absolute rights, you have anarchy. Is that the 'rights' you want?



So we are so far oppressed that that you're growing a garden in your backyard in order to eat? The crown also abused it's power, treating it's citizens without just or due cause to anything it wanted to.

 

Like indiscriminately logging phone calls & emails without a warrant?


(Just a thought)