Holy crap I'm confused. So you're willing to take a bullet for you children and grand children, but not give up a few rights, that will in all honesty, never affect you? Don't you understand that this Act is not meant for you?


The Constitution doesn't say what side of the road I'm allowed to drive on, but I gurantee I'll get arrested for driving on the wrong side. You cannot hold all rights equally and to the same standard. It what you're doing and considering you're right infringes on the rights or safety of others, then that right will be revoked. If terrorists come over here, and have the right to privacy to plan unwarrented attacks on civilian targets, then that right needs to be revoked, and actions taken to correct that deficiancy.

 

As I said, everyone hold the govn't responsible when bad chit happens, so if they have it in their power to prevent bad chit, I fully expect them to use whatever means necessary. It's a double-edged sword. People expect the govn't to protect them, and them tries to limit what actions the govn't can take to do so. Like our soldiers, for example. We tell them to go win a war, and then get upset when they kill people. What the hell is that all about?

 

Back when the phone company was a monopoly (AT&T) they were allowed that right (to be a monopy) with certain expectations and rules. We all bought into that service because we knew certain rules would be followed on our behalf. AT&T was broken up, but our expectations were not. We can all make our feelings known by choosing not to do business with the assclowns that gave our data to the NSA, and switching to those that didn't cave, or not.

 

We were blamed for 'an INtelligence failure' despite being muzzled.

Freedom and Liberty are not 'crap', they are not 'false ideals', and no one on my side of the argument supports infringing upon them. I do not support illegal wiretaps and circumventing due process of law. It has nothing to do with being able to drive down the wrong lane drunk or watching inappropriate acts with minors on the internet.

Incorrect, and that is a crutch. I have not given up anything, least of all my rights. It is the duty and challenge of our government to protect us to the extent possible while also protecting or rights.

I do have a garden in my back yard, it was beaten down by the 3 inches of rain we received yesterday.

The US Government is abusing it's power as well. I am not going to stand idly by with my thumb up my fourth point of contact whistling Dixie thinking to myself "Well, at least I feel safe."

 

I don't envy Bush....he truly is in a no-win situation.

If he doesn't do enough he will have "allowed" an attack by not protecting us.

If he does too much he will get people like me attacking him because he is putting safety over liberties.

The only thing I can say is that it is an incredible balancing act that has to be maintained. If I was unsure on which way to go I would prefer that he come down on the side of liberty and freedom.

The true objections I have is when someone simply says to update Congress or the Justice Department or involve the Judicial branch AFTER the fact to have their actions documented and reviewed and they balk that it is a security risk.

The security that is in place now is farce anyhow. Does anyone truly believe that the lame pat down that we get at a football game would stop a terrorist? Or the fact that I have to walk barefoot through a metal detector at an airport is doing anything other than exposing me to someone else's foot fungus? (By the way people with truly ugly feet should be given a pass )

Seriously though....Here is what I really fear....

The terrorists are winning their war in America by causing America to ignore their guiding principles in a response to fear....fear the terrorists caused. They don't have to attack us, they have planted the cancer (Fear) with the 9/11 attacks and now they can sit back and watch the cancer treatment kill us.

 

THAT my friend is the price of Freedom, you apparently have not come to realize that yet or can not accept it. The people in Spain had similar views to yours after Al Qaeda bombed a subway train, they chose to capitulate to the terrorist and withdrew their troops from Iraq. It was a cowardly thing to do. An entire country intimidated by a small group of religious zealots. I do not care whom it was intended for, it can and will be used against US citizens and that is a NO GO.

Don’t be ridiculous; the Constitution does not govern our traffic laws. Man can not revoke something that he did give.
The terrorists were not American citizens, they do not have the same rights as you and I do. While we’re on the subject, do you support the idea of thought police? I mean people think bad things all of the time, if they are thinking or even considering harming another then they ought not have the right to privacy no?


BTW there is a service contract between the phone company and their users, terms and conditions are spelled out within.

 

Again, it's the incorrect interpetations that **** me off, people using it for purposes in wich it was never intended.


Again, double edged sword.



I'm sorry to hear about your crops...




I don't feel that way. Sure there's abuse and corruption at every level of govn't, but I think that at the core, there's a group trying it's best to do what's right. If you cannot believe in that, you mind's well give up to conspiracy theories, stock up, and go live in the mountains.


I hope that you are enjoying this discussion as much as I am, and I think that's it's great that we're sticking to the topic without resorting to childish insults...cough(Lumadar)cough...

 

Enough already. "God Given Rights" is just a stinkin figure of speech. Thank God I finally gave up after 3 years in the 12th grade. Had I finished and gone on to college to learn how to express myself with crafty words like you guys are doing I'da asked for a blindfold and 1 last cigarette.

 

Too bad you didn't finish high school, because if you did maybe you would have noticed the part, scratch that, 7 or 8 parts where Pony Rider made it very clear it wasn't just a figure of speech, but that he literally belives that.

Thanks fot trying though, and GL on the GED

 

You guys gotta chill. Life is short!

 

I guess you missed this.....Hard to believe since it was a one line post.....and yes Comprehension is crucial....You might want to try it sometime




Don't even start with the I'm a Patriot and your not BS......You are clueless of my background or just flat out clueless...From your intellect and primal attempt at Patriotism .....I choose the latter.....So for the record let me set you straight Hero.....

I served under Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and still serving under Bush Jr.....Get it? Do your own math.....
My wife retired Mil.
My father-in-law retired Mil
My father was a disabled Vet from WWII South Pacific w/ 4 campain medals
My Grandfather a WWI Vet

From above

What kind of thought process is this???? Did it work?? Nooooooo Did we detect the highjackers....Possible but what good did it do....

Results of system in place.....9-11-2001

Conclusion...Broken



;

Uhhh they are...What you propose is to limit the tools of detection and protection.....My view is that is UNACCEPTABLE

If you want to stand around like sheep waiting for slaughter....Thats on you...

But the polls show that over 70% agree with me...That is just being pro-active and being the hunter....

Not the hunted

Reaffirms my conclusions....


[/QUOTE]

More Tin Foil hat theory......And I think my family has earned its right to be here....Like it or not....

I would hate to wake up every day without living life and being scared of the government shadow.....Life must really suck...

Last post to you....Life is to short for ignorance...

 

I guess I missed something in my little break from this thread. How does giving up my rights and freedoms suddenly make me a "hunter" instead of a "sheep"? Why does someone "mouthing" an oath suddenly mean they really mean it? How do we really know that terrorists aren't really working for the NSA, and it is all a ruse to take our rights away?

All of that blah above doesn't change anything in this discussion. I don't care if 99% of the respondents to a survey agree that we should give up our rights for safety....I WILL NOT GIVE THEM UP JUST TO BE SAFE!

Thats about as clear as I can make it ..........

 

Rookie !!!

I served under Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and still serving under Bush Jr.

 

Hmm. I don't know what to think of this post. Too have served under Nixon would have been back to Aug 74 or 32 years ago. Enlisted, last I knew, had a 30 year max stay and that was for E-9s. There is no way in hell you're an officer. You must be Guard/Reserve????

 

Sorry it took me so long to reply, the letter 't' on my keyboard gave up the ghost during my last post. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is having to copy and paste the letter 't' in a reply like the one's we've had here? Ended up buying a whole new shebang. New comp, new monitor, and a new cable modem since I couldn't find the install disk from the old one.

It's our job to keep that double edged sword within due bounds. I believe that it is out of bounds.

I have no idea if it is by design or coincidence, or if **** Cheney really controls the world with puppet strings, that our rights are being eroded, it makes no difference to me either way. I don't support such acts. Mountain property is gettin' mighty spendy.

I always enjoy a good debate.

That tells me that you're...old.

Who introduced the term 'Patriot' into this discussion?

You asked a question and I gave you an answer.
You seem to think that if one has not been apprehended, detained, questioned, searched or had their personal goings on looked into then they have not lost their rights. You are dead wrong. When the government declares that they can do any and all of the above and not even have to tell you about their actions and it goes unchallenged then one has indeed lost their rights.


The hijackers were almost all detected, two were on the known terrorists list. The problems with the national Intelligence agencies was that they all had barriers between themselves and each other. There was insufficient data flow. Which is exactly why I said the system required tweaks and adjustments, not sweeping new legislation that counteracts our principles as a nation of 'free' people.

There are ways to detect and eliminate the terrorists without trampling our rights, but that is not as easy as the President declaring that we must be able to monitor whomever/whenever.


If you think that I am sitting idly by and have taken no precautions towards my family's safety and that of my own you are sadly mistaken. No amount of eaves dropping can prevent another attack if the terrorist decided to hit us again. If you think that the PATRIOT Act et al are the saving grace of safety and will henceforth prevent AQ, or any other organization or individual that desires to do us harm from attacking us you again are sadly mistaken.

10 motivated individuals could bring this country to its knees in a matter of hours with less cash outlay than you spent for your truck. That is reality and no amount of monitoring will ever prevent something like that from happening unless you have every person monitored at all times.