Wow, way to support free speech there Loudest.

This was Kerry's way of launching his political career.

And if you do pull it out, you might just get it whacked off!

 

You're a moron.

Anyone who had political aspirations would avoid something that controversial like the plague.

He was angry, and tried to do something about it.
He put a voice to a lot of peoples feelings of guilt and pain.
He tried to put the cause exactly where it belonged, on the brass.
He wasn't thinking about politics when he was doing it.

What is your last statement supposed to mean?

 

I don't suppose he was thinking about politics when he was having film and pictures taken of him playing soldier either. The man has been about achieving his political goals since before he left college, and hasn't taken a break since. You can lie to us; but, I hope you're not buying this yourself. If that behavior from a presidential candidate is OK with you, fine. I can respect you saying, "I don't care if he is a glory hound, I still support him for President of United States." I still wouldn't agree with you; but, I would respect your honesty.

 

See what happens when liberals can’t get people to believe in their ways…

If these people had their wish nobody but those that agree completely with them would have any rights to voice an opinion. I do have a RIGHT to judge anyone I wish in any manner I wish and I served my country to help insure those rights remained and I will continue to exercise those rights…

Kerry is a weak timid coward that had his and ONLY his interest in mind when he made his statements to Congress. I had an uncle who served in Vietnam and he was a POW. He never came home from Vietnam because he never made it out of the POW camp he was in.

Couldn’t tell you much about him, what unit he was in etc because I really don’t know much about him other then he was a POW and never got out.

Kerry WAS thinking politics when he made his bonehead coward statements to Congress and history is your proof…


loudist,

I respect your opinions even though we don’t agree on much of anything but remember we are only expressing our views here. None of us are in an elected office and none of us are really going to change anything, so chill a little because I am not going anywhere and I am NOT shutting up…

 

Yeah, it was all the brass, not the a-hole in the oval office (LBJ) and his bean counting Sec. of Defense (McNamara). They are the ones who really screwed the pooch and deserved 90% of the blame but LBJ cleverly shifted it onto the military. Newsflash, the armed forces don't make policy, thats for elected officials. LBJ didn't want to jeoparidze his domestic policy. Read Robert McNamara's book called "In Retrospect" and see if it dosn't make you want to puke. Ironically he reminds me of Rumsfeld.

Blame game

military brass: 10%
LBJ and co.: 90%

By the time Kerry testified to Congress it was more than clear that Vietnam was a huge cluster f*ck and I don't think there was all that much controversy about what he did. It was a political move, just like most of what he does. As far as I'm concerned, his service was honorable and impressive and I applaud it, I could only hope to be that brave under fire. Using the spotlight to protest a pointless an messed up war was certainly justified but crapping all over American troops and calling all of them war criminals then does not jive with his proud service now. He was a war criminal then but he's proud of his service now? I want to know which is correct. I suspect his views now are, he's right to be proud, but he needed a political spotlight then. I might not be a war hero but I wouldn't make American soldiers out to look like a buch of looting vikings to advance myself in politics. Overall am I better than Kerry, probably not, but I will call a spade a spade and his behavior is false now, or it was false then and as far as I'm concerned, that, not the status of his medals, is the big question about him on the Vietnam issue.

 

Sport, go find a group of VietVets and start bashing Kerry as a coward and a wimp, and see what happens.
Hope your insurance is paid up, major medical.

 

I think you and I have a major misunderstanding. I am “not” talking about Kerry’s service in Vietnam I am talking about his actions after he left Vietnam.

I will give you this, some Vietnam vets do support Kerry and I respect their decision to do so. However there are Vietnam vets who do not support Kerry and it is directly related to his actions “after” his service in Vietnam.

I doubt very much I would face any problems talking to Vietnam vets and expressing my opinions on Kerry because I have talked to Vietnam vets who support Kerry about how I feel with his actions “after” he left Vietnam and they give me as much respect for my opinion as I do for theirs and they understand why I have the opinions I have.

Perhaps there are a few that might get a little bent but that would be the extremely few who have no respect for any other person with a differing opinion from theirs.

When I state Kerry is a timid little coward it is in reference to his degrading remarks made against those who served in Vietnam. I speak in reference to his wishy washy stance on how he wants “global permission” or to pass the test so that we can defend ourselves should we perceive there is a “possible” threat to us.

You view Kerry’s statements to Congress in one aspect and I view them completely different. As you stated you are a Vietnam vet and for that I thank you for you service to our country. I have the utmost respect for you and those like you who have served in a very dangerous situation so that I, as a kid then, could continue to live in a free society.

It is because of people like you that Kerry’s statements to Congress just **** me off. You and your fellow soldiers got treated like crap after the heroic service you gave and that just pisses me off and I don’t go around trying to intentionally **** people like you off by my opinions but I just can’t sit here quite because I believe people like Kerry helped to make an atmosphere ripe for the type of treatment you received after you returned home.

Now we can go on disagreeing about other matters and I am not writing this post to get on your good side but what I state is the truth and why I have the opinions I have on Kerry.

 

Fatman, you are correct... ie: not the troops idea to fight that war in that way.
Thats what Kerry was getting at by relating some of the incidents that were entrusted to him to relate to congress, because many ( impersonators not withstanding) that participated in the Winter Soldier conference just couldn't bring themselves to do it in front of Congress, get it? Kerry took their message and experience to the Congress, so in a sense he was representing them (the WS) and other vets in an arena that could actually make some difference.
This was not cowardice, or treason... this was, in my case, hope.

Both you guys keep basing your posts on INCOMPLETE and OUT OF CONTEXT bites lifted from the testimony.

Do us all a favor and read his complete Senate testimony HERE.

Then its possible to have an intelligent conversation about this one particular issue.
There are parallells between VietNam and Iraq.
Look for them in this transcript, and please look at it wholistically, try not to cherry pick for partisan bias as thats already been done by the dirty tricksters.
You say you are independant thinkers, read it twice, there is a lot there to consider.
Thankyou.

 

here is a more complete version of the testimony.
http://usliberals.about.com/od/campa...yvietnam_5.htm

I read it all, several times and loudist is correct, Kerry never states HE was a war criminal, but he slaps that brush around on everyone else. What he does do it basically portray all the American soldiers in Vietnam as being war criminals and of being the worst of the two sides. IMHO I don't buy that, but my opinion of that is irrelevant. What I still think needs to be said is after this testimony in which he talks about all the awful stuff that was done and the use of unconscionable tactics and weapons against the Vietnamese, how could he ever be proud to have served in that war? He says that the people protesting at home are better men than the ones fighting in Vietnam. That isn't pride to have served. I maintain that it still boils down to if what he said then and how he said it is true then how can he now say that he is proud of that service? It rings hollow to me, he wanted to look strong and like a good commander in chief (b/c of his atrocious record on military matters in the senate) so he dusted off his service in Vietnam.

This isn't the end all be all of John Kerry but I think it’s a valid question for him. He comes off as a hypocrite IMHO b/c of this. The swift boat veterans asked the wrong questions, never mind the medals, which was it, ashamed to be part of the American war in Vietnam or proud of his heroic service to his country?

He knew damn well that his testimony was going to be well received at the time, and it was, even by the senators. Maybe I'm too cynical but I suspect that if there was not a reputation and spotlight to be gained by his activities he would have been more than happy to forget all about Vietnam and go back to his life. I just don't buy him as a man of conscience, he's too political and self-centered, and it shows on his shifting his stance on Iraq when it becomes politically convenient.

There are numerous reasons not to vote for John Kerry and in the grand scheme of things, his activities after the war isn't that high on the list, but it is a valid question that can fairly be asked of him since he has repeated thumped his chest about his service b/c that is waht the public wants, a war hero.

 

No, he doesn't.

Quote:

What he does do it basically portray all the American soldiers in Vietnam as being war criminals and of being the worst of the two sides. IMHO I don't buy that, but my opinion of that is irrelevant. What I still think needs to be said is after this testimony in which he talks about all the awful stuff that was done and the use of unconscionable tactics and weapons against the Vietnamese, how could he ever be proud to have served in that war?
He says that the people protesting at home are better men than the ones fighting in Vietnam. That isn't pride to have served. I maintain that it still boils down to if what he said then and how he said it is true then how can he now say that he is proud of that service? It rings hollow to me, he wanted to look strong and like a good commander in chief (b/c of his atrocious record on military matters in the senate) so he dusted off his service in Vietnam.

A good point, up to a point. He did attempt to resolve the conflicting later on a meet the press show.
One must understand what he was attempting to do with that testimony. For one thing he reinforced information that was already out there about atrocities, and the point in bringing it up wasn't 'tattletale' , but to illustrate the tactics many of us were
conditioned and ordered to do.
It was an indictement on the leadership, and yes up to the whitehouse, which is exactly what is happening today.
The tactics weren't implemented in the early part of the conflict, but midway to the end. He was telling it so as to explain why so many were coming back home psych cases, drug addicts and very troubled. He had seen what they did to Calley (who was following orders) by the brass, they made him the scapegoat. Kerry was putting it out there first that it wasn't the men gone wild, but men following training and orders. It is very dramatic and powerful testimony, it was preemptive against us getting the shaft from the leadership, shifting the blame onto us.
Can't you see that?
I'm telling you, he had our backs and was covering our asses.
We took enough crap, returning to a populace that hated us (not because of Kerry) but by the innuendo and then My Lie and how that was characterised as troops gone bonkers.
Kerry laid it out like it was, and put the blame at the feet of those who deserved it. He pulled no punches.
He tried to get Congress off their political asses and do the right thing and end that clusterf*ck as soon as possible.

Quote:

This isn't the end all be all of John Kerry but I think it’s a valid question for him. He comes off as a hypocrite IMHO b/c of this. The swift boat veterans asked the wrong questions, never mind the medals, which was it, ashamed to be part of the American war in Vietnam or proud of his heroic service to his country?

He knew damn well that his testimony was going to be well received at the time, and it was, even by the senators. Maybe I'm too cynical but I suspect that if there was not a reputation and spotlight to be gained by his activities he would have been more than happy to forget all about Vietnam and go back to his life. I just don't buy him as a man of conscience, he's too political and self-centered, and it shows on his shifting his stance on Iraq when it becomes politically convenient.

Man, no one really knows what the future holds, until you are in it.
It is a wise man that adjust strategies and positions based on the daily reality, that is the mark of a reasonable person.
Just as our ECM's in our trucks adjust timeing and a/f mix based on realtime feedback of information. We get better performance and economy with an extended engine life. Its better to be responsive to fresh and valid information and react accordingly.

Quote:

There are numerous reasons not to vote for John Kerry and in the grand scheme of things, his activities after the war isn't that high on the list, but it is a valid question that can fairly be asked of him since he has repeated thumped his chest about his service b/c that is waht the public wants, a war hero.

My guess is that he was conflicted about:
the strong bonds formed with your immediate and general brothers in combat situations, it is an indescribable and intimate relationship,
against:
the horrorible way that relationship was being exploited by the leadership.
Its only a guess, but a pretty good one.

 

Why can't it be both?
I'm sure there are a number of soldiers that are ashamed of what went on there, ashamed of what they had to do there, some probably are still haunted by images of what they endured, and what they inflicted on others.

I was a soldier- I still am in my heart; and if I had to take some people out in order to live to see the next day and save my own **** doing it- it'd get done. You can bet that if it's him or me, it'll always be him~ if I have anything to say about it. Would I be proud of having to have neutralized someone? No. Would I be ashamed of it? Who knows...? I'd have to have done it, and lived to know if I'd be ashamed of it. I don't think I'd be ashamed, but I've never directly taken a human life.

At the same time- there's a lot to be proud of.

There's pride in knowing you answered the call from your country, pride that you made it through basic training or OCS, Pride in your commission as an officer, pride in knowing you faced your fears and got past them, pride that you served your country actively during a time of war, pride that you survived for one year, (365 days) in combat; exposed to hostile gunfire almost daily- pride that you lived to talk about it.
-----------------

Look at the Vietnam movies- 99% of them will have at least one scene of prostitution, rape, enemy torture, the burning of villages, etc.. Things that could be considered war crimes today. Yes, I know it's Hollywood; but every lie is based on some truth. I'm not saying everyone did it; but I'm sure some did. Some did it probably becaused they wanted to; some because they liked to; others probably because they were ordered to... I hope it didn't happen, but it probably did....

 

loudist and cia-agent both make good points but I'm afriad that his two positions and the fact that he is a political animal lead me to believe that in one instance or the other he was doing what he did for political gain. Anyway, like I said, it's a small part of why I find Kerry distasteful and unworthy of being president of the United States of America.
If I'm him though, it seems that this might have been something that I leave where it belongs, in the past. The swifties were wrong to attack the medals but Kerry left himself wide open to get torn up on his controversial record with the Vietnam Vets with his repeated references to his service. I'm seeing how guys like loudist feel that Kerry was protecting them but I understand the anger that a lot of Vietnam Vets feel towards him. Hopefully in 30 years scars from Iraq won't still be troubling this country.

Anyway, interesting on how a thread about the movie defaming the other candidate turned into a discussion of his opponent's post-Vietanm activities. We all need help, I think we may go through political ranting withdrawl after the election.



I'm going to exit this argument b/c obviously I wasn't born when any of this happened and despite my studies of the period there isn't any substitute for living it. In closing though, thank you to all the Vietnam Vets who did what they had to to survive and served their country a lot better than it served them. They all deserved better than what they got from the government and the ignorant jerks who spit on them when they got home.

 

Amen to that, brother.

 

He started screwing them while he was still over there. His political carreer has been a long planned proccess. The three purple hearts, bronze star and silver star were all part of his plan. Each and every medal was put in for BY Kerry, first denied, but later he recieved them when he "put in for them" to a different officer. The three purple hearts (for self inflicted wounds that would not even require a band aid) all served his purpose to "escape" Vietnam (as bad as draft dodging) and to then go and "conference" with our enemy (worse than draft dodging, it was/is treason) and give our ENEMY information that our POW's suffered torture to withhold! And this is the man that is now attempting to be our President. God save us!

~Colby

 

And you know all this because you were there with him, in his brain, right???