Is Troyer really worth the wait?
#76
02-01-2008, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by Wild Bill
Ok, so that brings me to the question: why are hundreds of specific parameters needed if they are not being utilized for a narrowly set tune?
The triangle represents the tunes, the Blue line up the middle would be the perfect tune, and the width of the triangle represents the variance that the tune can handle.
The green zone is the stock tune, it can handle a wide variance of things such as bad gas, altitude change, different driving styles, temp and humidity changes, ect.
The yellow zone would be all of thoes worthless chips that are good for a few different models or cover a few years worth a a specific model. The only thing narrower about them than the stock tune is most bump the timming, lean out the a/f ratio, and require you to run premium.
Light gray is your more customized mail order tunes where the tunner takes input of your mods, location, driving habits, fuel available, and what your intended use is along with what mods you have done ect.
Notice the width starts to narrow, as the tune gets more specific, the ammount of variance it can take gets to be less and less. This is how the input provided is helpful to the tunner, by using the info on whatever forms they require he can narrow down and tighten up the perameters giving you more power.
The dark gray is for dyno tunes. I did make the light and dark gray for a reason as sometimes these two areas do overlap, depending on the tunner involved and the ammount of back and fourth datalogging you do.
Back to the dark gray, dyno tunes are monitoring the car while it is being run, no need to know what mods are on it as it is all there. Also taken into account on a dyno tune is the variance from one vehicle to next that are there from production variances. This is something that has to be seen on the dyno or through datalogging as no written info can tel you that. By having the car/truck there and seeing the results of the inputs in real time the dyno tune, tunner capable of course, can go further up the blue performance line than the mail order as the car is there and everything is on the screen. As with any tune there has to be some headroom left in for weather altitude, gas, and load variances but running the car on the dyno you can usually narrow down how much headroom to leave ALOT better than just using past experiences on other similar vehicles.
The red zone is for people that use things like DFI and SCT Pro Racer Package. I know some guys who will tune their car for the summer months, then again when the temps go down for winter, and make adjustments to their tunes at the track for that particular days weather conditions. Even there they have to leave some room for the unseen but not nearly as much.
Hope this helps...again sorry it looks like a x-mas tree
#77
02-01-2008, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ThumperMX113
Are you going to be happy If I answer your sincere question? 
My shift points weren't set of 5800 RPMs, rather around 5,500 RPMs. But when the dyno run was being done, it was locked into gear thus hitting the rev limiter. Rev limiters are always set a few hundred RPMs above the shift points.
PS: I don't care about a post count, you can set it to zero, wouldn't bother me. RP has 20,000+ posts, does that mean he has a chip on his shoulder?
My shift points weren't set of 5800 RPMs, rather around 5,500 RPMs. But when the dyno run was being done, it was locked into gear thus hitting the rev limiter. Rev limiters are always set a few hundred RPMs above the shift points.
PS: I don't care about a post count, you can set it to zero, wouldn't bother me. RP has 20,000+ posts, does that mean he has a chip on his shoulder?
- NCSU
By the way, the post count jab had nothing to do with the chip comment. The chip comment was prompted by your refusal to answer a simple question. The post count comment came about thanks to your lecture on proper thread etiquette.
#78
02-01-2008, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by ThumperMX113
Are you going to be happy If I answer your sincere question?
My shift points weren't set of 5800 RPMs, rather around 5,500 RPMs. But when the dyno run was being done, it was locked into gear thus hitting the rev limiter. Rev limiters are always set a few hundred RPMs above the shift points.
PS: I don't care about a post count, you can set it to zero, wouldn't bother me. RP has 20,000+ posts, does that mean he has a chip on his shoulder?
No, they won't work unless the PCM code is the same. I don't see why it wouldn't run right or do any damage, if both vehicles had the same mods, lived in the same area, used the same octane rating gas.
Now your second question is a little more difficult to answer "fully". But the reason for all of these parameters is merely because there are always different circumstances for each vehicle especially when you're dealing with a modded vehicle with twin turbos, etc.
My shift points weren't set of 5800 RPMs, rather around 5,500 RPMs. But when the dyno run was being done, it was locked into gear thus hitting the rev limiter. Rev limiters are always set a few hundred RPMs above the shift points.
PS: I don't care about a post count, you can set it to zero, wouldn't bother me. RP has 20,000+ posts, does that mean he has a chip on his shoulder?
No, they won't work unless the PCM code is the same. I don't see why it wouldn't run right or do any damage, if both vehicles had the same mods, lived in the same area, used the same octane rating gas.
Now your second question is a little more difficult to answer "fully". But the reason for all of these parameters is merely because there are always different circumstances for each vehicle especially when you're dealing with a modded vehicle with twin turbos, etc.
From the factory Ford tunes them for octane rating, not for specific type of gas. So that would indicate that the Ford tunes are more broad, whereas if he needs to know the specific type of gas, that would indicate his tunes are more narrow. That's just one example out of "hundreds of parameters."
If you include the other hundreds of specific parameters (whatever they may be) it would further be indicative of an even more narrowly designed tune overall. Once again, not as broad as the Ford stock tune, because they don't tune every single vehicle individually according to four pages of customer questionaire/data sheets.
Last edited by Wild Bill; 02-01-2008 at 06:37 PM.
#79
02-01-2008, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by 01TruBluGT
Here is an easy way to look at it. I know I know it looks like a X-Mas tree but oh well.
The triangle represents the tunes, the Blue line up the middle would be the perfect tune, and the width of the triangle represents the variance that the tune can handle.
The green zone is the stock tune, it can handle a wide variance of things such as bad gas, altitude change, different driving styles, temp and humidity changes, ect.
The yellow zone would be all of thoes worthless chips that are good for a few different models or cover a few years worth a a specific model. The only thing narrower about them than the stock tune is most bump the timming, lean out the a/f ratio, and require you to run premium.
Light gray is your more customized mail order tunes where the tunner takes input of your mods, location, driving habits, fuel available, and what your intended use is along with what mods you have done ect.
Notice the width starts to narrow, as the tune gets more specific, the ammount of variance it can take gets to be less and less. This is how the input provided is helpful to the tunner, by using the info on whatever forms they require he can narrow down and tighten up the perameters giving you more power.
The dark gray is for dyno tunes. I did make the light and dark gray for a reason as sometimes these two areas do overlap, depending on the tunner involved and the ammount of back and fourth datalogging you do.
Back to the dark gray, dyno tunes are monitoring the car while it is being run, no need to know what mods are on it as it is all there. Also taken into account on a dyno tune is the variance from one vehicle to next that are there from production variances. This is something that has to be seen on the dyno or through datalogging as no written info can tel you that. By having the car/truck there and seeing the results of the inputs in real time the dyno tune, tunner capable of course, can go further up the blue performance line than the mail order as the car is there and everything is on the screen. As with any tune there has to be some headroom left in for weather altitude, gas, and load variances but running the car on the dyno you can usually narrow down how much headroom to leave ALOT better than just using past experiences on other similar vehicles.
The red zone is for people that use things like DFI and SCT Pro Racer Package. I know some guys who will tune their car for the summer months, then again when the temps go down for winter, and make adjustments to their tunes at the track for that particular days weather conditions. Even there they have to leave some room for the unseen but not nearly as much.
Hope this helps...again sorry it looks like a x-mas tree
The triangle represents the tunes, the Blue line up the middle would be the perfect tune, and the width of the triangle represents the variance that the tune can handle.
The green zone is the stock tune, it can handle a wide variance of things such as bad gas, altitude change, different driving styles, temp and humidity changes, ect.
The yellow zone would be all of thoes worthless chips that are good for a few different models or cover a few years worth a a specific model. The only thing narrower about them than the stock tune is most bump the timming, lean out the a/f ratio, and require you to run premium.
Light gray is your more customized mail order tunes where the tunner takes input of your mods, location, driving habits, fuel available, and what your intended use is along with what mods you have done ect.
Notice the width starts to narrow, as the tune gets more specific, the ammount of variance it can take gets to be less and less. This is how the input provided is helpful to the tunner, by using the info on whatever forms they require he can narrow down and tighten up the perameters giving you more power.
The dark gray is for dyno tunes. I did make the light and dark gray for a reason as sometimes these two areas do overlap, depending on the tunner involved and the ammount of back and fourth datalogging you do.
Back to the dark gray, dyno tunes are monitoring the car while it is being run, no need to know what mods are on it as it is all there. Also taken into account on a dyno tune is the variance from one vehicle to next that are there from production variances. This is something that has to be seen on the dyno or through datalogging as no written info can tel you that. By having the car/truck there and seeing the results of the inputs in real time the dyno tune, tunner capable of course, can go further up the blue performance line than the mail order as the car is there and everything is on the screen. As with any tune there has to be some headroom left in for weather altitude, gas, and load variances but running the car on the dyno you can usually narrow down how much headroom to leave ALOT better than just using past experiences on other similar vehicles.
The red zone is for people that use things like DFI and SCT Pro Racer Package. I know some guys who will tune their car for the summer months, then again when the temps go down for winter, and make adjustments to their tunes at the track for that particular days weather conditions. Even there they have to leave some room for the unseen but not nearly as much.
Hope this helps...again sorry it looks like a x-mas tree
That is more to what I was getting at. So looking at that, if you make the tune more narrow the user has less leeway to change the variables, such as using a different type of gas, without negative effects on the engine because he/she could more easily stray outside the tune "band".
#80
02-01-2008, 06:51 PM
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That's a great way of explaining it 01TruBluGT....
The only point I was trying to make is that your "custom" mail order tune may not be as custom as you think....It can only be so many variables without the real time data. Is it better than a canned tune???? probably...but it is nowhere near as good as a dyno tune. There is a lot of hype put into these tunes...I'd be curious to see some dyno pulls on two similar trucks, one with a canned tune and another with a mail order "custom"
The only point I was trying to make is that your "custom" mail order tune may not be as custom as you think....It can only be so many variables without the real time data. Is it better than a canned tune???? probably...but it is nowhere near as good as a dyno tune. There is a lot of hype put into these tunes...I'd be curious to see some dyno pulls on two similar trucks, one with a canned tune and another with a mail order "custom"
#81
02-01-2008, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FordTech1
That's a great way of explaining it 01TruBluGT....
The only point I was trying to make is that your "custom" mail order tune may not be as custom as you think....It can only be so many variables without the real time data. Is it better than a canned tune???? probably...but it is nowhere near as good as a dyno tune. There is a lot of hype put into these tunes...I'd be curious to see some dyno pulls on two similar trucks, one with a canned tune and another with a mail order "custom"
The only point I was trying to make is that your "custom" mail order tune may not be as custom as you think....It can only be so many variables without the real time data. Is it better than a canned tune???? probably...but it is nowhere near as good as a dyno tune. There is a lot of hype put into these tunes...I'd be curious to see some dyno pulls on two similar trucks, one with a canned tune and another with a mail order "custom"
#82
02-01-2008, 07:08 PM
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Sorry if I'm a little late for the dance and this has been covered before then....
Ideally you would have to have the same truck at the same dyno facility to get an accurate result. This is getting way off the topic of why they take so long though..........I'm sure Troyer is a busy shop and it just takes time and that's the bottom line. I know what it's like to be backlogged in this industry, trust me........I think it's more of a question though as to why a tune that may not really take all that long to set up takes so long without any other reasonable explanation than " We're busy!" Which mind you is a perfectly legitmate reason for taking time....
Ideally you would have to have the same truck at the same dyno facility to get an accurate result. This is getting way off the topic of why they take so long though..........I'm sure Troyer is a busy shop and it just takes time and that's the bottom line. I know what it's like to be backlogged in this industry, trust me........I think it's more of a question though as to why a tune that may not really take all that long to set up takes so long without any other reasonable explanation than " We're busy!" Which mind you is a perfectly legitmate reason for taking time....
#83
02-01-2008, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by FordTech1
Sorry if I'm a little late for the dance and this has been covered before then....
Ideally you would have to have the same truck at the same dyno facility to get an accurate result. This is getting way off the topic of why they take so long though..........I'm sure Troyer is a busy shop and it just takes time and that's the bottom line. I know what it's like to be backlogged in this industry, trust me........I think it's more of a question though as to why a tune that may not really take all that long to set up takes so long without any other reasonable explanation than " We're busy!" Which mind you is a perfectly legitmate reason for taking time....
Ideally you would have to have the same truck at the same dyno facility to get an accurate result. This is getting way off the topic of why they take so long though..........I'm sure Troyer is a busy shop and it just takes time and that's the bottom line. I know what it's like to be backlogged in this industry, trust me........I think it's more of a question though as to why a tune that may not really take all that long to set up takes so long without any other reasonable explanation than " We're busy!" Which mind you is a perfectly legitmate reason for taking time....
Most the time you can get 3 tunes in 2 weeks max.
#84
02-01-2008, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FordTech1
Sorry if I'm a little late for the dance and this has been covered before then....
Ideally you would have to have the same truck at the same dyno facility to get an accurate result. This is getting way off the topic of why they take so long though..........I'm sure Troyer is a busy shop and it just takes time and that's the bottom line. I know what it's like to be backlogged in this industry, trust me........I think it's more of a question though as to why a tune that may not really take all that long to set up takes so long without any other reasonable explanation than " We're busy!" Which mind you is a perfectly legitmate reason for taking time....
Ideally you would have to have the same truck at the same dyno facility to get an accurate result. This is getting way off the topic of why they take so long though..........I'm sure Troyer is a busy shop and it just takes time and that's the bottom line. I know what it's like to be backlogged in this industry, trust me........I think it's more of a question though as to why a tune that may not really take all that long to set up takes so long without any other reasonable explanation than " We're busy!" Which mind you is a perfectly legitmate reason for taking time....
#85
02-01-2008, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by FX4&EXCURSION
No problem and agreed! I know the feeling as well and can certainly relate. By the way, are you a Ford Dealer Tech?
Certified Ford Engine Master
#86
02-01-2008, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JMC
Last I heard Mike was working as fast as he can. Ask your favorite tuner how many tunes he cranks out in a month. Get an average over a 6 month period. Get an honest answer. Compare that to the number that Mike Troyer tunes. I do not believe that Mike holds back to create an illusion. I own my own business and trust me as soon as I can I bill my customer. I do not wait so I can make the customer thing that I am busy. He will go somewhere else.
JMC
JMC
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02-01-2008, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by i.ride.suzuki
Yeah if everyone was taking 3months to do 3 tunes.
Most the time you can get 3 tunes in 2 weeks max.
Most the time you can get 3 tunes in 2 weeks max.
#88
02-01-2008, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by i.ride.suzuki
Yeah if everyone was taking 3months to do 3 tunes.
Most the time you can get 3 tunes in 2 weeks max.
Most the time you can get 3 tunes in 2 weeks max.
#89
02-02-2008, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by FX4 Matt
Yea you could get a tune in 2 weeks when you get it from some plce that have 5000 people working there, Mike is the only one doing the tunes ONE man not 5000 think about it
#90
02-02-2008, 07:32 PM
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Those of us that went with Troyer and are very happy with the results will tell you the wait was well worth it in the end. Those that weren't willing to wait and instead went with something else and were very happy with the results will tell you the wait isn't worth it.
Bottom line is the OP is not going to get unbiased answers to his questions because we are all pretty much happy with the direction we took in regards to our tunes. Unless you've actually used both tunes for significant periods of time you simply can't say one tuner is better than the other. Sure Mike's been at it longer than Justin and Mike specializes in tuning F150's where Justin seems to specialize in Mustangs. IMO that makes Mike better and is ultimately what made me go with Mike. That's exactly all it is though, MY OPINION! Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong. I don't understand why these tuning threads always tuner threads always turn into pissing matches where one side bashes the other.
How can you bash something that you've never tried?
Bottom line is the OP is not going to get unbiased answers to his questions because we are all pretty much happy with the direction we took in regards to our tunes. Unless you've actually used both tunes for significant periods of time you simply can't say one tuner is better than the other. Sure Mike's been at it longer than Justin and Mike specializes in tuning F150's where Justin seems to specialize in Mustangs. IMO that makes Mike better and is ultimately what made me go with Mike. That's exactly all it is though, MY OPINION! Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong. I don't understand why these tuning threads always tuner threads always turn into pissing matches where one side bashes the other.
How can you bash something that you've never tried?