These threads always seem to end up the same way everytime.

 

I guess I am fairly poor at expressing myself in a better way. The Troyer vs VMP thing is old and I guess I fueled the fire.

The biggest difference between the two: I DON'T KNOW!!! Who really knows????? Why the difference in wait time: I DON'T KNOW!!! I have never been to either shop to see what goes on and unless I have been to both I can't honestly give my opinion.

My main point is unless you have done an independant scientific study on the difference in tuners/tunes there will be know way of knowing. You would have to define all the parameters first and go from there. Do the testing and then have to verify your tests.

All this other crap is just opinion just like my opinion.

I guess I am off the soapbox now. Probably won't see me around here much longer. I won't let the door hit me in the a$$ on the way out.

Kevin

 

Man these are the best threads. Get's so boring around here otherwise. Let's break it down. You buy a 20 30 or even $40k truck and decide to buy a shiny new SCT programmer with custom tunes for ~$400 from one of the 'three' wisemen. Now for less than the cost of a tank of fuel you can order a or a few custom tunes from another and compare for yourself or we can just keep reading this stuff. I for one hope the beatings continue.

 

I agree. I'd have nothing to do at work otherwise ..

 

OoOoOoOo

 

I'm going to weigh in here with my experiences....

Before I left the business to concentrate fully with my online ventures I tuned a lot of vehicles. There is no one else in the industry besides Troyer who I will let tune my F150. There is rarely a question I can throw at him, no matter how technical (nitty gritty tuning questions) which the man doesn't have complete knowledge of. I trusted his tuning enough to turn over support of my customers on another site to him. These days when an old customer of mine contacts me for additional tuning I forward them to Troyer Performance. I rarely post on this site because I founded its chief competitor. Steve Eppinger and I are friends, and we've been "co-opetition" over the years, and we usually stick to our respective sites, though on rare occasions one of us will drop in and post on the other's site. I feel strongly about this issue so I'm choosing to post now.

I won't comment on VMP's tunes, or anyone else's here, except Mike's, because I know how much Mike concentrates on F150 tuning. Troyer Performance is the only company in the world that actually specializes in F-150 performance and tuning, especially at the level he does. Not only has he done a lot of tuning research for some of the blower companies, he's also helped some of the biggest players in the tuning industry (I won't go into the details) and has supplied a lot of the information they went on to employ in their tunes (though like a martial arts instructor he keeps the best for himself). Many of the PCM reads SCT has for these trucks came from him. The first SCT base reads for Roushchargers came from him. Mike has been tuning for over 30 years, most of that in EFI tuning. Because he obsesses so much about these trucks he's taken that knowledge to new levels that nobody else has. I can personally vouch for the repository of PCM system operation and tuning documentation he has on these trucks - I've seen some of it in person at Troyer Performance, Mike has shown me more of this information than he has ever shared with anyone else (and sorry, I cannot be specific due to issues of confidence).

He knows the specifics of the extremely complicated throttle by wire controls better than anyone I've met, and with all due respect to all others in the industry (without mentioning specific names), Mike knows it far better. I've seen him not only offer advice to countless other tuners on SCT's dealer forums, but also give correct information out when some post "less than optimal" solutions.

The dyno results I've had speak for themselves. My truck, with a stock 5.4 3V engine equipped with a Roushcharger, is currently getting over 400 RWHP and in excess of 500 RWTQ (and it’s a 4x4 with heavy 20" wheels, both of which contribute to enormous drive-train losses). Throttle response is virtually instantaneous. We had a detailed discussion about how he could make response even better if he ignored fuel mileage & certain driveability concerns. Speaking of which, my truck weighs just under 7000 lb with me on board (6400 lb empty with no fuel, etc.), and at 75-80 mph, still gets 18+ mpg even with the new race-built transmission & torque converter Mike just installed. Put Mike's throttle delay up against stock and other tuners and judge for yourself. For example, Roush's tune has about a 1/4 second delay (or more) between pressing the pedal and getting a response. It causes driveability to suck because I would give it a little pedal to accelerate normally (not under boost) and because of the delay I'd give it more than it needed and it would go into boost unexpectedly, causing more power than I wanted (not good when there's a cop nearby). Mike solved this problem.

 

More details... Roush's tune (328 RWHP) maxes out the stock fuel pump capacity instantly at WOT. Mike's tune, at over 400 RWHP, keeps it under 90% (my next session will involve installing further fuel system upgrades so we can lower the duty cycle even more). While Roush's tune yields safe a/f control with the duty cycle maxed, that is ONLY because Roush limits top speed to only 94-99 mph, depending on the exact strategy - certainly not what I or Mike consider "good enough" and he fixed this. It also helps power significantly at WOT because of certain calibration changes I am not at liberty to divulge, and now there is no problem with the quick transients that previously occurred at quick throttle stabs.

Cruise control.... take his tunes, stock tunes and XYZ tuner of your choice. Drive the truck up steep inclines with the cruise control on and note the difference in the way they cycle the torque converter lockup. With stock, and many "other" tunes you're going to see a lot of lock/unlock cycling. Basically what happens is when its locked the truck can't deliver enough torque to keep speed so it unlocks. The truck gets some power, the PCM determines there is now enough torque and locks the converter. But when the TQ locks back up, suddenly there is once again not enough torque so it unlocks it again! And it keeps this cycle going. Not very good driveability and it causes excess heat as well. Mike found a number of F150 owners who were nice enough to work with him to identify the solutions for this issue, and now Mike has several different solutions available based on strategy – not only identifying the cause, but most importantly Mike also offers a single solution that works for all strategies & model years of the F-150. Again, this is Mike's focus on driveability.

Power....

In the case of my Roush there are things that could be done to his tunes to yield a bit more power, but NONE of them would be safe. Any tuner can bump up the timing and lean out the a/f ratio to give you more power. Max power on a dyno pull however, doesn't tell the whole story. There's a huge difference between max power and giving great power safely, especially when supercharged. In the case of my tunes we sat down together and he went over the data logs in detail with me. He could get more power by going leaner (12.0 or even leaner a/f ratio) and giving it max timing (and then letting the knock sensor pull out timing). Instead, Mike has done the R&D and spends the time needed to get a steady safe A/F ratio across all RPMs at WOT on my truck and adjusted the timing tables so the tune wasn't constantly pulling out timing (in the entire WOT rpm curve his tune pulled at most .5 degrees of timing in one small spot) as happens with so many other tunes. This is the kind of attention to detail Mike gives to his tunes. Order a tune from him, and properly data log your truck by following his instruction sheets and you'll get the similar results, even in mail order if you cannot get to his shop.

While some would argue that its okay to bump the timing way up and let the knock sensors pull out a lot of extra timing, this actually slows acceleration and doesn't take into account that some of the cylinders aren't heard as well by the knock sensors (and one of the cylinders can't be heard at all!!). It’s better to be safe. Yet, in spite of his measures for safety his dyno charts stand up to (and beat) anyone's on the same trucks. He’s had many people come in with competitors tunes, had him dyno them, and then dyno the truck with his tunes and seen the improved results due to his experitise and specialization in the F150. I've personally watched him build his mail-order tunes for several people. Unlike many tuners he doesn't start by loading SCT's value files and then modifying them. He builds each tune from scratch. Watching him is fascinating. He'll talk to himself about the various changes he's making as a way of double-checking everything he does and he constantly compares his changes to the base file, to the data logs and the customer's tuning sheet throughout the process to make sure its "perfect."

He does things with these trucks that those who don't know the F150's calibrations as well as he does wouldn't think of (without specifics as I won't break his trust).

 

Other things he knows.... exactly how different bolt-ons and modifications impact both horsepower and torque at any throttle position or rpm, and their actual impact on tuning. He doesn't have to guess about different brands (and revisions) of intakes, headers, exhausts, fuel-pumps, injectors, etc.... he knows these details intimately because he's tested pretty much every combination countless times over the years he has specialized in F-150 performance. For instance, he has tested every revision of every intake kit made for these trucks, every different shorty and longtube header, virtually every manufacturer’s cat-back exhaust in each of it’s different configurations – as well as the various camshafts (he specs his own custom cam for each application, most don’t do this), superchargers, transmissions, various manufacturers of gear sets, differentials, etc. Troyer Performance is responsible for much of the R&D that has gone into many of performance parts on the market for the F-150 today. As an example ask him to tell you about underdrive pulleys and you’ll get a detailed knowledge about them and many things that you would never know need to be taken into consideration when designing them.

If I was still "in the business" and had a dyno at my disposal I'd do all the tuning on my truck. But even then I probably wouldn't get the results he gets unless I had as much access to Roush F150's (as well as the Whipples, Saleens, etc) as he does. Since I'm no longer in the business, and as a result don't have a lot of interest in R&D and can't justify the time it would take to tune my truck myself optimally, there's only one person I trust with my truck: Mike Troyer. Some folks here have spent an hour (or two, or three) on the phone with Mike and come away amazed at how much he knows about F150s... I've spent weeks with him and countless hours on the phone with him in the past 3 years and its humbling knowing how much he's still advanced even further just since I left the business. His tuning on my Roush supercharger was phenomenal 2 years ago, and the results are still up there among the best - but he never stops testing, investigating, learning and tweaking. My truck has been back twice and each time he's applied what he learned and the power and driveability has gone up again and again.

Like other's I've had to wait my turn to get some of Mike's time. I'm 100% okay with this because I know the reasons he's not always the quickest when it comes to turn-around time: a) he does a ton of tunes, b) he writes each from scratch, c) he pays attention to details, d) "good enough" isn't good enough for him, e) he has a lot of customers who take the time and expense to visit his shop for dyno tuning and about any reputable aftermarket product you can think of from mild to 1500HP monsters, and f) he spends a lot of time doing R&D that nobody else takes the time to do. If I call him and he's not available, or I email and wait for a response I'm patient and wait my turn. I have his office number, his cell number and his home number, and I could get in touch with him immediately if I wanted to but I don't do it because I know how busy he can be (I've only called his home number twice, and that was when he requested that I call him at home on a weekend).

There's a reason why Mike doesn't charge the lowest price in the world, and why he doesn't have the quickest turn-around. It’s because what he delivers is simply the best, so if you want the best its worth it. I suggest that anyone who prefers someone else's tuning put Mike's tunes against them on a dyno with intensive data logging as well as properly controlled track testing and you'll see the real picture.

On a final note, though this doesn't really relate to gas tuning these F150s... don't let his concentration on F150s fool you. I specialized in a lot of diesel tuning in the business and he knows how to properly tune the Powerstroke diesel engines as well. The gains he gets while still maintaining the lowest EGT’s are great. :-)

 

Marc Carpenter, the love of my life, is that you?

Seriously???

I have seem to misplaced my BS flag...

This post should read...

Please look up acadianabob and read through his posts if you want to know more.

Sure Mike can tune F150s all day long, he is good at what he does, than so be it. But don't hide the truth on what actually happened.

 

To the OP,

Do what someone posted before on this thread, buy the SCT device of your choice, then git a tune from VMP and then a tune from TP. Or vice versa. Anywho, then you can choose which one is right for you. Honestly, you cant go wrong with either, no matter what you choose you will be smiling all the time.

I went with VMP because of the all the recent hype, and i am a very impatient person and liked the idea of gitting tunes in one week. I prolly will eventually git a tune from TP to compare, but college gits expensive.

Congradulations on at least thinking about gitting a custom tune of some kind. Makes you a man....

Zane

 

I'm looking to get a tune and get rid of my Edge Evo, and honestly I think I'll be going VMP just cause of all the positive feedback about the tunes on this site from multiple users. Maybe someday I'll try some Troyer tunes aswell.

 

It is "normal", in that several stock PCM calibrations did this (mostly late 2006 and on), I noted in my post that they did this and the base reads which he built tunes off of had this. If a calibration does this from the factory, how is that not "normal"? I don't know the details of previous conversations here, nor will I dig through them as I have a life and I'm not here to get into a pissing match but to simply give my experience as both someone who's tuned F150s, as someone who has spent a great deal of time with Mike, and lastly, my personal experience with his tuning. At my last visit he told me he's preparing to mail several customers impacted by Ford's TC lockup problems to fix this issue.

With all due respect nowhere did I try to "hide" anything and I'm not going to be rude telling anyone they post "bs". What I noted was that he has solved this issue with Ford's calibrations. I don't know every conversation that goes on here because frankly I don't spend much time here. As I noted, seat of the pants doesn't tell the full story... put the tunes on a dyno and do intensive data logging and the entire picture becomes clearer. In a month or so check ford-trucks.com (mod's can remove this if they feel its not appropriate) and you'll see the articles I'm currently preparing about my last visit. They will have dyno charts, some data logs of the results, videos and photos. If I can learn my new DashDAQ well enough I'll probably be posting data logs from my driving experience since the tuning session as well. The DashDAQ logs will include wideband O2 results as well if I get it wired to my LM wideband in time.

I'll be happy to PM you a link to one of his competitor's recent Roush F150 tuning if you want. With much more boost than my truck its producing about 25 HP less and the a/f ratios aren't nearly as consistent. I can't be sure about max torque though because my high stall converter flashes too quick to get the peak numbers (the flash causes power to hit the dyno at a higher RPM past peak torque so we could only see the downslope from peak torque). The tune in this competitor's recent dyno pulls yields 2 RWHP less horsepower than Mike's tune from two years ago, and significantly less than Mike's current tunes.

 

Marc how can you say Mike's tunes are the best if you've never had VMP's? That's not very fair or logical ...

 

I'm not "Marc" and I don't even know who Marc is so please don't call me Marc. If its meant as an insult it's awfully rude and petty.

As to tunes, I've seen plenty of dyno results and I've seen some of the actual tune files used.

Two years ago, Mike's tuning with just a 2 lb lower pulley (yields about 1 lb on a Roushcharger), no headers, no x-pipe and non-true dual street exhaust (standard Roush street single-in dual out exhaust):
http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/i...rformance.html

1 month ago, VMP with the same size lower pulley, a smaller upper pulley, headers, off-road dual exhaust with x-pipe:
http://www.vmptuning.com/forum/showthread.php?t=802

VMP's tune on a truck with more mods had approximately the same power as my truck with less mods. Fast forward a year and I got another 10 hp from Mike's tune with the same single pulley swap verses the 2 pulley swap VMP employed, again with my truck's street exhaust, no headers and no x-pipe.

Fast forward another year. Now my truck has headers, no x-pipe, no true-duals and still with the same single pulley swap, and Mike's tuning is 30+ HP more than VMP's tune. And yet, even with this much HP the fuel pump duty cycle is under 90%. I'll also add that this was with stock coils and standard HT0 plugs. My boosted truck now puts more power to the pavement in summer than it did 2 years ago in the winter (winter temps tend to really give a lot more power with superchargers). At my recent visit to Mike's shop I had some down time (Mike was writing some tunes and the guys in the shop needed me out of the way) and I spend some of the time on the web and saw VMP's recent dyno plots... I couldn't help but grin and hope I could meet that truck on the street.

If I opt to swap in an even larger lower or smaller upper pulley (I'm considering it) to bring the boost up near the level the truck used in the VMP plot, as well as putting in true duals with an x-pipe, perhaps a "boost a pump" and the numbers will simply dwarf VMP's numbers. VMP's recent tune had good power when compared to Roush's numbers, and compared to Mike's 2 year old tunes on a truck with less mods, but doesn't stand up to Mike's recent stuff. I've seen some of the results of VMPs tunes at Mike's shop and Mike's results when he was finished.

We're estimating with a larger lower pulley, GMS coils and properly gapped Brisk plugs we'll see much more power and that's before doing anything else to the exhaust or porting the blower. I'm not sure yet if I want to go that route because its pushing it for a stock block.

When I get more data I'll post it but I'm still in the process of doing extensive data logging (something most people on forums bragging about their tuner don't bother to do because they often don't know how or wouldn't know what to do with a wideband). Data, data, data.... that's what counts and shows the whole picture.

 

So every single vehicle with the same mods, puts down the same power numbers? I'm not going to get into a pissing match with someone over it, especially someone who would never be turned. So with that said, you and other's like Troyer's tunes, and a bunch of other people like VMP's tunes. So what does that tell you? I'd say they both are great tuners. However, to be naive, to think that one is just so much better than the other is just that, naive. Does that mean all of the other guys who have had both and like their VMP tunes better, liars? Give it a rest, everyone has their own opinion, and lets leave it at that.

So, seriously who are you exactly, if you're not Marc?