Hi Bill,
I have a 2005 F150 and my tranny failed at 42k miles. After posting my woes on the 04+ forums, the question was raised and re-raised as to what role the EDGE may have played in the premature failure of my transmission. I had it set to Level 2 and increased shift firmness to +8/+8/+6 and WOT Fuel to 1.6. The only other parameters were to set gearing (3.73's) and tire size (35").

Don't get me wrong, I LOVED my EDGE and looked forward to the day that I upgraded to the Gryphon, but after dropping over 3k for my new tranny, I am gun shy to say the least. It seems to me that to electronically control shift firmness rather than the installation of a shift kit is like forcing the tranny to do something it was not designed to do. I am sure there are other transmission related parameters that are affected so my questions are only focusing on those and not mods to the motor (ie. air/fuel, timing, etc). I currently have it installed as I like the gauges, but it is currently set to stock programming (and to be honest, it's killing me!).

Now I am no idiot and understand you are in the business to sell programmers, but I DO trust your judgment and opinions on this matter, and your reputation speaks for itself. I do appreciate any honest feedback you can provide, and I am quite sure there are others that are interested in what you have to say as well.

Finally a note to all; I am not looking to start a flame war, tuner comaparo discussions or anything other than some hard core, honest information as it relates to transmission health.

Thanks for your time and patience with my questions!

 

imho-tranny shift characteristics can be tailored by shift pressure and settings- but ultimately a modified valve body in conjuction with a tuner is the best bet-i've been running troyer tunes since 04 in my van exclusively since new-at 166,000 withe zero issues to date-including tranny...

 

Just an FYI my dad's transmission in his 2006 failed around 36000 miles and he doesn't have a tuner, doesnt haul heavy trailers and is 100% stock. So the programmer may have not had anything to do with it, and it could be a weakness in the trans.

 

Thanks, but I dont know if that makes me feel better or worse!! 36k miles?? I questioned how "common" 4L75E tranny failure are in the '04+ trucks and discovered there's not one TSB on the matter. If this premature failure was a common occurrence, we'd see at least a TSB by now. The lack of TSB's is a good thing.

Could it be we just had a bad tranny and the failure was not due to the EDGE? I REALLY hope to find out more about how tranny characteristics are affected by the EDGE.

 

While we're waiting on Bill's input (and he may never find the time to get here), I'll post his answer to a related question that I copied once upon a time. I didn't copy the link to the original post, so I can't give that to you. Here it is:

Q: I've read from place to place that it isn't a good thing to boost line pressure in the transmissions in our trucks, or at least the 4r100's. How and what does the programmers do to quicken and tighten the shifts in our trucks? Any help on this subject would be greatly appreciated. I've not purchased a programmer yet but will be in the very near future and I'd like to make sure I don't do anything to harm my truck. It's served well for 200K+ miles and I'd like to keep it that way!

A: This is a very good question. Let's see if I can answer it properly without creating more questions.

As of late, most manufacturers (Ford included) are under the misguided impression that trucks should shift like a Cadillac. After all, nobody wants to spill their tasty, hot cup of Starbucks right in their lap, causing all sorts of unpleasantness, not to mention that we can't have the Mrs. smearing her makeup in the mirror. There are a few things that manufacturers do to soften the shifts:

1. Reduce power output during the shifts (Known as Torque Reduction).
2. Lower line pressure during shifts to soften them.
3. Increase the delay between unlocking of one clutch set and locking of the next (Known as Slip Time).

When modifying calibrations to improve the firmness and holding power of the transmission, we sort of have to undo what the manufacturers do.

The first thing (for a performance program) is reducing the torque reduction. This gets rid of the "dive" that occurs between each shift. Now if we eliminate torque reduction with no other considerations, you are going to end up with worn out clutches. This brings us to step 2...

Next we reduce the amount of slip time in between each shift. This reduces the amount of wear on the clutch plates by reducing the time it takes for a shift to complete.

Finally, there are two ways to modify line pressure: Line pressure modification during shift (for each gear), and overall line pressure modification (also for each gear).

For most performance situations, increasing pressure on each shift improves the shifts by causing a quicker, more positive lock of the clutches. This reduces wear. Once the clutches are locked or engaged, the additional pressure backs off and you run the desired main pressure. There usually isn't much need for increasing the overall pressure in these situations as the clutches don't have any problem holding the moderate power gains you'll normally see with a programmer. Of course if you significantly change power output with a supercharger, turbo, nitrous, etc. then you may run into an issue and those needs are addressed in a different fashion.

For towing, not only do you want improved shift pressures, but you'll usually want a slight increase in overall pressure to ensure the clutches don't slip with heavier loads. Since we design towing programs with much of the torque reduction still in place, we don't need to get too aggressive on shift pressures. This helps prevents stressing the overall drivetrain, including the transmission.

It's quite true that increasing transmission pressures can cause problems with the transmission, including excessive tranny temps. However, most of the files that cause this damage are often running anywhere from 15 to 50 PSI higher than stock on both shift and main pressure. Our tuning is much more conservative, and usually up to about a 10 PSI increase will do the job nicely.

In any case, it's a matter of balance and being able to weigh the modifications with the needs of the customer and vehicle.


The key point, I think, is that Bill works hard to create "safe" tunes (as do all competent tuners). Given the complexity of a modern transmission, I suspect the failure was not related to the Edge modification (which Bill had a major hand in creating), but instead was a defect in the original assembly.

- Jack

 

Well, I think that Jack just about covered it with that.

As a side note, I work very closely with a few of the Ford dealers in our area and they keep me up-to-date on failure trends, weak spots in the drivetrain, service bulletins, and other interesting tidbits. This way we can make informed judgments about how our products are affecting vehicle service life and whether or not there are any specific trends in driveability issues or component failures.

With this in mind, I have no problem in stating that we have not seen any higher frequency of component failure (engine, transmission, etc.) with a programmer than we have without a programmer. The fact is that components will fail from time to time and that's why manufacturers offer warranties... To cover those unexpected, premature failures.

Come and listen to a story about a man named Jed. (Names have been changed to protect the innocent. )

Jed is a customer of ours who recently suffered a complete engine failure. After having a programmer on his truck for a while, he developed a problem where he was setting a CEL and the DTCs showed an issue with the Cam Phasers. His first question to me was whether or not we did anything to the Cam Timing that could cause the issue. Since he was running a CAI, I had indicated that we did not make any adjustments to the Cam Timing because it contributes to the droning issue frequently observed with CAIs.

After clearing the DTCs, they came back. Time to go to the dealer and see what's up. The dealer changed the oil and indicated to Jed that the oil felt "gritty", although they oddly didn't save a sample of the oil for further evaluation. The DTCs were clear and down the road he goes. The CEL is back on before he gets home.

Avoiding unnecessary details, he goes back to the dealer, they pull the engine, and sure enough the engine is completely wiped out. Bearings are shot, cams are shot... you get the idea. A replacement engine was installed and now all is good. Keep in mind that there have been no changes to the programmer he was running.

What's interesting is that about 6 weeks after this incident we had a customer come by and in conversations with him, he indicated that he had his engine replaced at 24,000 miles. Reason? CEL and DTCs for Cam Phasers followed shortly thereafter by a complete engine failure. Scored bearings and cam journals along with trashed cam phasers.

Now, I found out something interesting a couple days ago while having lunch with the service manager of one of our Ford dealers. He recently purchased a used Lincoln Mark LT with relatively low miles. After having the vehicle about 5-6 months, it developed the all-to-common camshaft rattle that is usually associated with failing cam phasers. Same story, different day. What I found interesting is why failing cam phasers leads to the demise of the engine. Also what's interesting is that they are finding that certain oil filters are discharging some of the filter material into the engine and this is what leads to the early demise of the engine, at least in these cases.

One little fact... The oiling system on the 3V engine feeds the camshafts first, going through the cams, the cam phasers, and then down into the main oil gallery where it will then feed the main and rod bearings. There is a (relatively) common issue where the cam phasers can develop a fracture and develop an oil leak which then causes a starvation in the rest of the oiling system. You can guess the rest from there.

The reason I bring this up and tell you this story is because at first glance, the customer could have easily jumped up and down screaming about how the programmer broke his engine when in fact, the programmer had nothing to do with it. It was just a random engine failure that happens on vehicles without tuning just as frequently as vehicles with tuning. The other interesting thing about it is that while there is a TSB in regards to camp phasers and excessive startup/idle rattle relating to worn cam phasers, there is no recall or even a TSB about how a failing cam phaser will starve the engine for oil and wipe out the bottom end. Just because there is no acknowledgment of the issue, it doesn't mean that it's not there.

All in all, I'd say that your transmission failure was simply an unfortunate, isolated incident and I seriously doubt that the programmer had any direct relation to the failure. Even if the programmer was related, it's more likely that the transmission already had an underlying issue and the programmer would have only accelerated the inevitable.

With the number of documented failures compared to the number of programmers and chips actually out on the street, there is nothing to indicate that programmers or chips have any significant effect on the reliability of powertrain components, so long as there are no preexisting conditions or marginal components that would have otherwise experienced a failure of their own accord.

I hope this is helpful.

 

Great info, thanks to Bill and J&J for your time and input. I have a quick follow up for Bill:

How does reducing torque reduction, increasing line pressure and decreasing slip delay electronically rather than through some means of "hardware" upgrade affect the tranny wear long term (if known)? And most importantly, in your experience (and this is really important due to the amount of F150's you have tuned) is the 4L75E a good candidate for these types of mod's?

Finally, at what point or setting do you see diminishing returns when setting shift firmness? I set mine to +8/+8/+6 but I see some guys setting it more than twice that!! I think if I stick with Level 2, I will leave this setting alone.

Thanks again! The information so far has been incredible.

 

To a fair extent, handling the shifting electronically vs. mechanically (ie. using a valve body or "shift kit" programming plate) will achieve pretty much the same results. The nice thing about electronically handling the shifting is that it is easily modified and reversible. Mechanically modified transmissions aren't so flexible. Since the average power gains on an F150 aren't going to be anywhere near the gains we see on the diesels (30 HP vs. 130 HP), there is little danger of exceeding the design limits and capabilities of the factory transmission components. With this in mind, electronically controlling the transmission parameters will work just fine.

Now if you make a change that significantly changes the power output of the engine, then a mechanical modification may be preferable. However, if you look at the Roush S/C kits, you'll notice that even with the high power output of the engines they still handle all the shifting electronically and even those applications have no problem handling the shifting.

In regards to shift firmness, it's all about feel and comfort. The custom options were designed more to tailor the shifting to a users tastes and comfort zone. If +8 gives you the "feel" that you like, then that's what you go with. Some folks prefer a firmer shift and will go up to 15+ on the shifts. Some folks like the softer shifting and either leave it alone or even go negative on the firmness. It's strictly personal preference.

Take care.

 

I can under stand what you are saying, I would also Like to know if tuning will damage my trans on my 06.

 

 

Again, thanks for responding. I am slowly gaining some confidence back regarding my EDGE! But last question regarding firmness: I used to have shift kits in other vehicles and loved the more postive shifts. But to program shift firmness in the 15+ range is NOT bad for the stock tranny?? Seems like it would be due to the hard engagment and wear on the stock clutch material.

BONUS: The PHP website has changed so much since the last time I visited! The best addition is the forum section! If I knew this existed, I would've posted there first! For those who have not checked it out go here:
Power Hungry Performance Forums.

Thanks Bill and Groovy Chick, I am sure my wife appreciates the fact that I'll be spending my time on more than one forum...!!!

 

Thank you so much for the positive feedback! I recently revamped the website -- the more I learn about programming in HTML, the better it gets. The forum was definitely one of Bill's best ideas, and we keep adding to it. We're trying to set up a live chat in the Gameroom Lobby once a week. And I saw that you joined today -- welcome! (If the wife complains too much, you can point out that at least she gets to control the remote more often now! )

 

The "firmness" setting is the one that reduces or extends the delay between clutch unlock, and locking of the next set. The value entered is a percentage change in the established millisecond delay. So, if your tune had, say, a 480 millisecond delay between the unlock and lock times, a +10 setting would reduce that delay to 432 milliseconds. You DO want some delay, or you're going to put sudden stress on the driveline. Too much delay though causes more clutch wear.

Keep in mind that any of the canned tunes in the Edge or the custom tunes you find in the Gryphon have already modified this delay. I simply leave mine set the way Bill set therm up.

Other programmers, like the X3, Flashpaq, Livewire and others do the same thing with this delay and allow you to adjust it further. Personally, I suspect they set the delay about right to balance clutch wear and "crispness".

- Jack

 

LincolnMark - I feel very confident in saying that a tune from a reputable tuner such as Mike Troyer or Bill Cohron WILL NOT damage your transmission. But, if you get your vehicle tuned by Bubba at Billy-Joe's Garage and Car Wash in East Overall Patches, Mississippi; well then, you take a chance.

- Jack

 

Thanks for the reply. I have VMP Custom tune. Nice to hear that is not the tunes!