I don't know why these shifting problems are occuring but it seems we all have had similar difficulties (including FORDMAN(or is that boredman?) on other threads). Mine doesn't like to shift into second under hard acceleration or back in to first after hard breaking(with out double clutching). My 4x2 sees mostly commuting miles in Dallas traffic and the occasional dirt road out to my folks place. While I like the way the 4.2 revs I am looking for a wrecked cobra to swap the 5 speed out it into my truck. As well as a nice set of 3.55 gears for the rear

------------------
'99 Amazon Green XLT Flareside, 4.2 w/ K&N, jet chip, Flowmaster with redneck (just kidding) 4"dual tips.

 

Arch- same thing happens with mine...

------------------
2000 White F-150 Sport 4.2L 5-speed,3.55 gears
MODS: K&N, Flowmaster 50 series.
superstang97@yahoo.com
AIM fakefvc
Ford vs Chevy
www.fordvschevy.com
Moderator: Road Kill, Mustang vs F-bodies. We also have a Ford VS GM/Chevy Truck forum

 

Arch,

I have the same problem with mine. I usually shift slow from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd to avoid the notchy (grindy) feeeling. I have never heard a grinding sound, but I can feel something thru the shift lever. I have had about 5 occasions that the shifter would not go into first gear at a stop. Putting it back into 2nd, then back into 1st has worked everytime.


------------------
1999 XLT SC, 4x4, Long Bed, 4.6 with manual trans. Deep wedgewood blue

 

samething happens to me...

------------------
2000 White F-150 Sport 4.2L 5-speed,3.55 gears
MODS: K&N, Flowmaster 50 series.
superstang97@yahoo.com
AIM fakefvc
Ford vs Chevy
www.fordvschevy.com
Moderator: Road Kill, Mustang vs F-bodies. We also have a Ford VS GM/Chevy Truck forum

 

Huckster, yours is the first description that has enough information to address.

From your description, you're experiencing the case where the synchro teeth happened to 'park' at a point where when you push the lever, the synchro 'clutch' (the hobbed thing-um-a-bobbie that slides over the blocking ring (synchro) and over the matching teeth in the first gear -- those two sets of teeth are not in line.

Under this scenario, and since there is no rotational motion, the slider slides over the synchro but comes agains the head of the teeth on the gear. There's a point where the teeth, which are supposed to miss each other actually line up like >< and do not allow the slide.

When you go to second gear, you rotate the shaft ever so slightly (during the engagement of >_ ) and then when you go back to first, the >< becomes _< which allows for it to move past each other (gears) and properly mate.

Much head-scratching goes into designing the synchro mating driver feel of a transmission -- and just when you've got things right for someone that makes lazy two-springy-finger shifts, you find that people want to make full-fisted death-grip shifts.

The Muncie transmissions of the 70's in Chevies vs the Borg's in Mopars are two great examples. Muncies were Verrrrry nice shifting boxes that would accept ultra-fast (even clutchless full-throttle "crash-box" shifts) with a short lever, while the poor Mopar owner even with a mile-long lever couldn't buy a speed-shift with his whole week's paycheck.

Synchros these days are not even always brass any more -- they're paper lined (yes paper) in some cases. Under light shifting like you've described, you can actually feel the slider catch the synchro, stop the gear, slide over the next set of teeth (the gear) and then park in place. It's kind of nice being able to feel everything happening, once you become aware of what's happening.

If you make a nice lazy springy-thumb-shift into third, you can actually lose contact between the synchro and the gear for a brief moment -- which allows third gear to again turn in relationship to the synchro -- and then you feel the 'crunch' of the slider stopping the gear instead of the synchro stopping the gear.

You can make a picture-perfect first gear shift while coming to a stop by ALWAYS waiting until the last 3 feet of roll before you gently push your lever into first gear with your thumb. Don't let the vehicle come to a complete stop before you try to put it into first gear, and you'll always make an easy shift (unless the clutch is dragging -- but that's another lesson).

Rule of thumb -- when coming to a turn, if you're moving, use second gear. Don't grab first. You've noticed that by double-clutching you can get it into gear. That's because you can sling your clutch up to speed and better match the speed of the gear with the engine before you try the shift -- instead of using the synchro to grab the gear thereby pulling the CLUTCH up to speed.

There's a balance between making a synchro that will always make the gear change under race conditions -- and one that will provide enough grip to easily bring the gear/synchro mesh at lazy shifts.

Most people drive with lazy shifts -- so that's where the engineering lies.

I read so much about the complaints with these transmissions (this board) that I went to my local dealer and drove some of their used 5-speed F-150s. I could feel just what you described -- and they drove exactly like my '95 Ranger -- which is what I consider notchy -- but I always shift it with springy-fingers -- and it always does what I command.

I have no confidence that I could make a full-throttle (power) shift between 1 and 2 and wouldn't ever try it with 2 to 3 -- although my friend's Chevy S-10 takes his abuseful redline powershifts without complaining. Very different feel between those transmissions.

There's a lot that can be done to tailor the feel of the shifts, but those tweeks are usually done by the transmission manufacturer -- and the user has few options other than detent pre-load and shifter length -- which can and do have a lot to do with feel. A springy lever vs a beefy lever will cause a very different gearchange feel.

This is about all I can do with what was described.

Hope it helped.


Had to make a P.S.: Some people don't realize that when they push into first gear, the speed of the clutch disk gets raised -- by the friction of the first-gear synchro -- to a speed that is determined by the rear axle.

Another way of saying this is with this example:

Assume that you run up to readline (5,000 rpm) in first gear -- and that it is 45 mph at redline. If you're in 5th at 45 MPH at 1500 RPM and then want to pull it into first gear, when you push against the synchro at 45mph (even if you were to shut off your engine) when you finally get it into first gear (remember you're at 45mph) you take your clutch disk and spin it up to 5,000 RPM by the friction on the first gear syncro !!!

That's a lot of heat/friction being commanded from you by the synchro. In fact, if you were dumb enough to try a first gear push at 90 MPH using this scenario, you'd be spinning your clutch disk (remember, you've got the clutch depressed) up to 10,000 rpm. This time, if your synchro had the power to make the gear, you'd have a clutch eating thru your leg as pieces exploded like the Big Bang.

I hope I didn't insult your intelligence -- but I never know if people actually know what's going on inside a transmission or not.

------------------
Y2K™

XLT SC SB 5.4L 3.73LS

[This message has been edited by Y2K 7700 4x4 (edited 04-15-2000).]

 

Y2K 7700

I agree with you on how everything works.

However, I can't understand why we have to rewrite the owners manual to be able to shift these trucks.
It seems that we have to perform surgery when shifting. Things that I have been told by the dealers.

"You need to go into 2nd gear before going into 1st".

Or "Put it into 1st while still rolling to the light and that will make it easier".

Or "when you get to the light wait about 30 seconds and then ease it into 1st".

The list goes on and on. I am 34 and have been driving manuel transmissions most of my driving life. Why is it that in many other models of trucks and cars the transmissions shift smoothly. Why is it that there is alway an excuse on how to shift the transmission when in other automobiles the transmission shifts with no problem.

Is it because when I am ready to shift the input shaft is spinning at 700.9555 rpm and I really want it at 693.99 rpm. Or do I need to divide the speed times the velocity times the square root of the RPM.

I have tried everything that each dealer has told me to do no matter how ridiculous it sounded.

I just don't understand why we can't shift our trucks like we have in many other trucks in the past. If you follow the owners manual then it seems like you're not shifting properly. The owners manual says "maximum down shift speed from 2nd to 1st is 20 mph". If you try and shift this transmission at that speed it seems like you're going to tear something up.

Three differant dealers told me 3 differant speeds to down shift or up shift from. One tech said " just shift when you feel like it needs it". Obviously, none of these things worked.

Sorry Y2K just venting but not at you personally.

 

Y2K 7700 4x4

So, is this grinding feel going to harm my transmission? Is this worthy of warranty work?


------------------
1999 XLT SC, 4x4, Long Bed, 4.6 with manual trans. Deep wedgewood blue

 

If you know of a way to shift it without grinding and if you can live with driving it that way -- it will probably outlast the truck.

If you're going to be speed-shifting and/or rodding the truck, it will get worse -- but never cause a transmission failure (you'll never walk home).

If it bugs the heck out of you, insist on open-heart-surgery -- but be prepared for a less-than-expert surgeon and the resultant whatever.

------------------
Y2K™

XLT SC SB 5.4L 3.73LS

 

OK JMC, 1997 POS I think not! MY 1997 Runs smooth and I'll bet it will run the same for many years to come. "The 1997 was a POS" Please don't tell me my truck is a POS. I'm refraining from typing in some imaginative words for ya


I go over that "big speed bumb" often.

Here is me crossing the flooded trail (It does get muddy after that).

DOES THIS LOOK LIKE A PIECE OF ***** TO YOU? I HOPE NOT!! 34,000 MILES AND NEVER HAD A PROBLEM!!

[This message has been edited by eph1fifty (edited 04-15-2000).]

 

No offense taken. I share your frustration.

The ONLY reason there's a synchro in first gear of any transmission is so that Bozos can cram it into first while they're still moving. When they're stopped, the synchro just gets in the way. Period.

Same thing for synchros in reverse + people don't wait for the clutch to stop before they cram it into reverse.

As for the feel -- I cannot agree with you more -- give me a Muncie 220 (I think that was the model I had) from the late 60's and I'd be a happy camper. Can't anyone copy that one for 350ft lbs? I abused the heck out of mine behind my tri-power 396 and 4.56 gears. It never complained.

How would you like an Eaton transmission in your Ford 5.4 or V10? (we're the LD market leader in Brazil) -- and our MD transmissions do pretty well her in NA. (Of course, the Fuller Roadranger transmission are the #1 market choice in NA's HD trucks.)

Film at eleven.

------------------
Y2K™

XLT SC SB 5.4L 3.73LS

 

Y2K 7700

Thanks for the article on synchronizer design and use. One of the things I really enjoy on this board is that there are folks out there who can share their knowledge and present it in an understandable way.

As to first gear synchro's, I totally agree that was not the brightest thing the engineers and marketers ever decided to do.
I own a '56 F100 and a 69 Chev C10 panel with 3 speed manuals. The Chev is non synchro on first, but shifts sweet as heck and just a blip of the throttle will let me slip it into first on the roll if I want to do it. The F100 is my sleeper, rusty, lots of dings etc. but with a built '300 I6 with 300 horses. To keep it a sleeper, I stayed with the column shift. The original tranny/engine combo was like the Chev, smooth as you would like. The street rod shop that installed the motor talked me into installing a mid '80s all synchro three speed, and it is awful. It will shift into first on the move, which I hardly ever do, but it is a bitch to get into first from a dead stop and I have to hit second or reverse first to avoid a crunch or even totally balked shift.

Just a thought, but seems to me that with automatics taking over 80% of the light truck market and almost 100% of the car market that we may never see many really good manuals anymore. Good in the sense of a fairly sporty feel as opposed to a ratchety, clunky transmission for those who insist on a manual. Lets them put their R&D and materiel costs somewhere else maybe?

Thanks again for your input. Reminded me of a lot I had forgot over the years, and was a good education for those more used to automatics or older manuals.
Bill

------------------
99.5 Lightning
Build #247
PSP Chip/Filter
Bassani full system
White/normal options
Tamiya 1/10 scale Bolt
Several old trucks/cars
Thunder & Lightning
Rag Doll Cats
E-mail MOSTOYSINC@AOL.com
Kennesaw, Ga. (Atlanta)

 

eph1fifty,

The tranny was a POS not the truck.

Kindest regards

Jean Marc Chartier



------------------
00 F-150 XLT SC Flairside 4x4 4.6 w/5spd
Warn XD9000i, skid plates, Draw tite class III,
Rancho RSX Reflex shocks,
Borla Cat Back
Modified Air Cleaner Outlet Tube
and air box, K&N air filter,
Superchips

 

I talked with a couple of service departments around here and they all said dont shift until I was at a full stop. This still hasn't cured my problem of it binding when trying to go into gear it "catching" when I shift from first to second. I am going to take it in and see what the service technician finds out when they put it up on the lift, or whatever they do.

------------------
'99 Amazon Green XLT Flareside, 4.2 w/ K&N, jet chip, Flowmaster with redneck 4"dual tips. Astro fiberglass cover. 275/70R16 Dunlops and 3.08 rearend.

 

Y2K - thanks for the tranny primer!

Entreri, in my opinion you should take it in and make it clear to the service writer that the shifting is unacceptable to you. From the posts it seems all manual transmissions have their idio"sync"rasies (pun intended), but drivers adapt quickly.

Although my 5spd had only a bit of grinding on occasion, there was clearly something wrong. My dealer diagnosed the problem quickly and professionaly. And most importantly, they did not insult me with "driving tips". The new tranny shifts crisply in all gears - I'll give it a few thousand miles before I'm convinced all is well.
.............Scott
btw - There seem to be some common 5spd syncro problems from reading these posts, but given the large number of these transmissions on the road, we probably should not draw any general conclusions about the transmission just yet.

------------------
2000 F150 XL, 4.2, 5-Speed


[This message has been edited by Scott D (edited 04-17-2000).]

 

Y2K 7700 4x4: That was a very nice and well-expressed explanation of shifting you posted last Friday the 14th. Just wanted to say that because I'm slow getting to this thread. Thank you for posting it.

------------------
Black 2000 SC short-box XLT. 4.2V-6, 5-speed, 3.55 limited-slip. CD, remote entry, factory side steps, FORD box liner.

My third F-series: '73 F-100, '98 F-150 and '00 F-150. GREAT trucks!