Frank,
I am not pointing fingers but am speaking logically. When you take 10 kits, 5 perform great and ther other 5 applications do not, then where does that leave us? The only conistancy is the kits as they are all the same.

On the same note when numerous people say I know 2 people, they are all the same people in question and we are aware of them. The problem is nothing has been addressed for us to help yet.

 

You couldn't be more right. Just like any highly tuned product you need to pay more attenton to detail but the results will be worth it.

Rich,
You prove my point above. You have the 'exact' same kit as the people in question with less than desirable results. The only difference is I know exactly how your install is as you kept in touch throughout the process and are a stickler for details anyway.

 

First let me say, Whats Up Trev, Thanks for stopping by "and" for being so professional and civil [/b]
Unfortunately seeing all the name calling and calling out here in this post is a HUGE turn off and I truly dont want to be part of the post anything more
BUT since my (and other's) RT systems are having trouble, I will for the sake of that, and that only.

Number one Rich (Hostile) is my good friend, a race buddy, drive to the track with, hang out with, talk on the phone with, and Team PSP Brother, so to
see him getting so upset here and then have it end up in a name calling just sucks monkey *** : o ( more so cause it's with my Pal Denny. Please "EVERYONE" lets get it back to Civil conversation and suggestions for the sake of "me and the other customers" And of course having a new member come in (if it's even a new member) and point that out, just makes it worse. But the bottom line is my good friends "like Rich" know how bad results like this have hurt my goals, and it pisses them off as much as me. *@$%$@$
If we can all be open minded and not so 1 sided, maybe we can figure it out hu ???

Trev, some quick facts,
I know you guys aren't into Dyno's but we have to be, it's a very important part of tunning a Lightning, and it's critical to the longevity of our Motors,
and lets face it they do clearly give you the before and after #'s when adding any mod, AND THEY DON'T LIE. Hence the reason we're having this conversation.

75 HP and even 100 HP worked awesome on my L (and others) when our trucks were stock or lightly boosted. Schitt mine took a full second off my ET with 75-100 HP jets when I was running the stock block and 4-6 lbs of extra pulley, I NEVER had a complaint and thats not the issue here. The problem is with better understanding of the Lightnings, better tuning software, and just plain ole human nature of people wanting more, these days stock block Lightnings are running 6-8 lbs of extra Boost with no problem. Everyone has 15-18 lbs of boost, and there's PLENTY like me running A LOT MORE.
I've ran as much as 16 lbs of extra boost, giving me a total of near 25lbs. I'm now back down to 22 max.

Trev this is where your system has proved to not work well at all, in some cases it actually loses HP over the non n20 #'s, sad but true... Sal and I have seen this on my L when running the 2 to 1 ratio. Now that we changed to a 3 to 1 ratio with the 200/70 combo we only pick up 80 HP, and when adding 50 more HP, we actually lost power. You and I both know this is terrible, In D's word's pathetic and embarrassing, hence the reason my pals jumped in and the fighting started.

Where do we go from here ??? I honestly dont know Trev ???
You dont know my story long enough to know I have hit waaaaaaaaaaaaay too many hurtles this year to want to start over on my Nitrous System.
Not a doubt in my mind my ole Zex kit would put it down on top of the boost, thats not even a question. Hence the reason Sal suggested some changes, and recommended you working with a Lightning expert. We all already know everyone elses Kit on the market does not have any issue spraying high boost L's. Sal, Johnny, and prob a hundred others have proved that over and over again. Now in Marks case and some of the others Sal has tuned with a RT kit, they arent even what I would consider extra high boost L's, as said almost every L on the road now has 15-20 lbs of boost, it's almost become the norm to have 16-18, and that is where we have now found out the RT kit will not perform.

Again in my opinion I believe it's the low pressure you guys use leaving the Solenoids. Is there anyway for me to raise that pressure Trev ??? I want to try something before I have no choice but to do whatever....
As for installation, no reason to show mine, there is no better. The nozzle lines are 4" - 6" long, there are NO turns, no grey area's, no places to point the blame. But I do have to be honest and say if Sal has my truck ready to race next Friday, and I cant use the n20 again, I got to warn you that I will most likely take this system off, I built this entire truck around being able to spray 150 HP, and we are not even close to being able to do that

 

So you say only 2 people have problems? For the sake of arguement, do you want me to list the people I know with poor results? Because if I think about it, I probably know 5 people. And 2 of them are not all over the internet bad mouthing or saying anything, just disappointed with the results.

I dont blame you for being defensive, but be reasonable.

 

That's 5 that I am not aware of if this is true, so again how we can we help if a person has problems and does not make us aware of them.

 

Rob,
Can you answer a few questions factually?

1) This post started off with you mentioning how your motor is losing power with to much boost. Now you only backed down the boost some and tried spraying a lot of nitrous which isn't going to magically give you all the power you want if your motor is still close to maxed out on boost. You proved this yourself with saying 75hp made decent power and anymore did nothing. There are always limits and many turbo guys realize this on their cars when finally the turbo is maxed out and causing a restriction so the nitrous just can't make any more power.

2) You upgraded to a braided line and have yet to install a purge.This is going to affect initial torque levels until the gas is purged out.

3) Have you guys gotten the bottle pressure up to standards to do new tests?

4) Can you explain how you built a nitrous motor as all I see is a high boost motor maxed out and still not perfect on boost?

5) Somehow you don't believe me when I tell you that the nitrous pressure is more than high enough and not affecting power. Ambient air pressure is 14.7 and seems to be making it into the motor fine so how do you think 300-500 psi is not enough from the nitrous?

It would please me to see a pair of NX solenoids and injector swapped out with the exact same jets used to compare as it would clear this crap up.

 

Some information has gotten misunderstood. I never said our kits dont work with high boost motors as that would not make any sense. What would affect one kit from another on boost pressures of only 20psi prohibiting high pressure nitrous coming in? None!

My point is the same above. Pushing a motor with boost is going to restrict the power of nitrous(on any kit) the closer you get to the limits of the motor. I have told Rob to do a simple test which has not been carried out. Drop the boost and see what improvements the same nitrous shot makes.

 

D

As stated in my Dyno post we only had it set to 75% initial power, (because on 100% we were getting a weird something on initial WOT ???)
So as I said we are NOT seeing my REAL tq #'s they are MUCH HIGHER
And yes the tank was filled to the top, and heated to 900 PSI

And as I originally said I DID pick up 100/100 at what I feel is thee most important part of the RPM range. I truly was happy with the results but of course was dieing to see more. When Sal went to 300/130 or /120 I forget which fuel jet we used), and even 300/100, we lost power, I was like WHAT

But to answer your question, "Can it be the springs" ???
Maybe but doubtful, when we over boost it you can very easily see the numbers nose dive @ 4000 - 4500 RPM and go down like Gator on a 6 pack,
"FAST"

I dont see that here at all
CLICK FOR LARGE VIEW


As you can see they follow the non n20 #'s very consistantly on the graph,
no signs of drastic power drop off like there was when over powering the springs. SAL IF YOU HAVE THAT SHEET HANDY WHERE WE OVER BOOSTED IT, POST IT IF YOU GET A CHANCE.

Either way the way the Dyno above reads is the way the truck will remain for now, we're back at that setup, and there is no doubt in my mind I prob have 700+ ft lbs of TQ. But the question remains, why not any more HP ???

As for why Mark only initially picked up 20HP on a hundred shot, and then finally 40 when Sal went to a 3 to 1 ratio, is still also a mystery ??? I wish Gator or someone else USING BIG HP JETS would shed some results ????
In the mean time maybe if we try BIGGER n20 jets and more fuel things will change. How bout 450/150, got any 450 jets D ???

 

Denny, No surprise to you - I am one of the 2 people Frank mentioned. I know of 2 others who haven't posted here. I talked to them. Not heard about them. That's 3.

I hope Sal can help you guys figure it all out. I don't have the time to research why the kit isn't working on a higher HP/higher boost trucks so you can fix the kits. I did do multiple dyno's with different jets and have some sheets I can send Noswizard. As an owner, I don't necessarily want to spend tons of my time trying to make a kit (an expensive one at that) work on my truck.

I would think it would leave you wanting to find out WTF happened for the 5 customers that are left wanting. We talked a few times about my situation and you were going to research the failed Maximiser and the low HP gains but I haven't heard from you. You state that the only consistency in the 5 failed kit example is the kit. Is another consistency that more highly modified trucks didn't get the expected gains? I wouldn't think you would want the stygma that the kits are great for stock to mildly modified trucks but not so great for more modified trucks. Unless of course your target market with the Lightning crowd is the stock to mildy modified group.

 

I have some next steps to work on:
1. Check the the entire system for line pinches
2. Install pressure gauge and washer to A. Stop leak and B. Know what pressure we are running at.
3. Try a different nitrous plate when available
4. Get my wideband commander installed, get a Xcal2 cable for input, and be ready to datalog some testing.

It would be nice to get all this done quick, but I don't have enough spare time to move too quick. Probably 4 weeks away from getting on a dyno.

-Mark

 

I know you guys aren't into Dyno's but we have to be, it's a very important part of tunning a Lightning, and it's critical to the longevity of our Motors,
and lets face it they do clearly give you the before and after #'s when adding any mod, AND THEY DON'T LIE. Hence the reason we're having this conversation.
Rich, tuning on a dyno for peak power is pointless unless you just want to achieve the highest top speed possible with your truck. What would be worthwhile as I mentioned earlier is to tune for acceleration by using the dyno to measure speed and time (as some dynos have the option to do). This would be far better for your engine and your track results as you seldom hit peak rpm / power when using your truck, whereas tuning it to have a wide spread of torque will mean the "tune" is right over the widest possible range rather than just to make peak power and the ET's will be quicker as a result. I don't see any reason why tuning a Lightning is any different to any supercharged or any other engine??? Most tuners use peak power as the target for tuning but they are all missing out on the potential they could give their customers. If they'd just consider the possibility that I could be right about this and do some back to back tests (it'll only take a couple of dyno pulls), they'd quickly realise a whole load of potential.


Trev this is where your system has proved to not work well at all, in some cases it actually loses HP over the non n20 #'s, sad but true... Sal and I have seen this on my L when running the 2 to 1 ratio. Now that we changed to a 3 to 1 ratio with the 200/70 combo we only pick up 80 HP, and when adding 50 more HP, we actually lost power. You and I both know this is terrible, In D's word's pathetic and embarrassing, hence the reason my pals jumped in and the fighting started.
The fact that reducing the richness of the mixture improved your results indicate to me that your problem could just be down to the mixture settings being too rich. Were you using an O2 sensor to see what the exhaust was running? You can get by with a rich mixture on a low power increase but as you crank up the nitrous power you increase the overall percentage of excess fuel and it can kill off peak power.


Not a doubt in my mind my ole Zex kit would put it down on top of the boost, thats not even a question. Hence the reason Sal suggested some changes, and recommended you working with a Lightning expert. We all already know everyone elses Kit on the market does not have any issue spraying high boost L's. Sal, Johnny, and prob a hundred others have proved that over and over again. Now in Marks case and some of the others Sal has tuned with a RT kit, they arent even what I would consider extra high boost L's, as said almost every L on the road now has 15-20 lbs of boost, it's almost become the norm to have 16-18, and that is where we have now found out the RT kit will not perform.
I'm guessing that although you have confidence in the Zex kit, you haven't actually tried it recently and without wishing to be disrespectful or offensive, the only way to assess this situation accurately, would be to actually do "back to back test on the same day on the same vehicle" anything else is not a fair comparison. What makes you think the Zex would make the numbers on the trucks that are having issues using my systems and could you tell me what jet sizes you would have to use to get that result? From these jet sizes I may be able to rule out the possibility of it just being down to the mixture. Just because a Zex or any other kit makes the numbers on a 100 trucks the same as yours, does not "automatically" mean that they would make the numbers on your truck today. Every truck and every component has it's own limits and unless you check both kits on the same truck on the same day, you can't conclude that a kit that "appears" to underperform on another truck or another day is due to the nitrous system. It must be done on the same truck on the same day - just as with any tuning products.

Regards
[/I]

Trev

 

Cont. from above;

Again in my opinion I believe it's the low pressure you guys use leaving the Solenoids. Is there anyway for me to raise that pressure Trev ???

One thing is 100% certain is that it is not due to the jet location. On numerous tests on numerous vehicles, the only aspect of my system that consistently produced better results was the location of the nitrous metering jet. I measured results with the jet located at the nozzle and then within minutes retested with the same jet at the solenoid and the results consistently better with the nitrous jet at the solenoid.


I want to try something before I have no choice but to do whatever....As for installation, no reason to show mine, there is no better.

Assuming your kit is as it was when I last saw it, then I fully agree with you.


The nozzle lines are 4" - 6" long, there are NO turns, no grey area's, no places to point the blame. But I do have to be honest and say if Sal has my truck ready to race next Friday, and I cant use the n20 again, I got to warn you that I will most likely take this system off, I built this entire truck around being able to spray 150 HP, and we are not even close to being able to do that

I wouldn't remove the kit till you see what the track times are with whatever jets give the best results as you could be missing an apportunity to run some outstanding times regardless of the dyno numbers.

Please don't let your previous troubles with other products cause you to short change yourself on mine, as you could be making the wrong move.

Having said all that whatever you want to try I'd be happy to work with you on it to prove one way or the other what works and what doesn't.

Regards

Trev

 

rmfreeze,
I did track you down last time and you said that you are busy and that your truck would be down for a few months getting some work done. I asked if you could send the Maximiser back during this time to test and I never recieved it. I can't do anything about the Maximiser problem until I get it.

Do you have any pictures of the install, injector location, etc?

You are right, I do want to get the people with troubles resolved but I can't read minds on the ones that are and find them and I can't inspect a faulty party that I don't have.

 

Despite the personal attacks and calling-out this has been an informative thread for us Lightning nitrous novices. I still don't understand:

1. Why doesn't Rob switch the nitrous kits if he's confident the NX kit will deliver the goods on JDM day?
2. Why everyone is coy about identifying the other users who are having problems with the RT kit? How can RT make any changes without data?
3. Why Rob doesn't lower the boost to 14 and hit it with a 150 shot from the RT kit and see the results, then up the boost 2 lbs at a time and compare? If something wierd is going on in the intake manifold under high boost like Dale suggested, maybe it would show up during this procedure.
4. Why Rob still thinks his motor is capable of over 600/700 with the stock heads/cams after all the difficulties? Is there anyone making 600/700 on stock heads/cams other than Frank5L?

No ax to grind with me, just trying to get educated.

 

Rob that answers some of my questions but makes the results even more puzzling.

One thing I would like you all to keep in mind is this;

I'm not boasting when I say I've spent the last 25 years working on all types of engines 24/7 with my systems and this is the first time I've had below par results and I don't have an immediate answer for it. Therefore whatever the problem is it's not something I've ever experienced in those 25 years of 24/7 and as far as I can tell it's not likely to be due to component design.

Having said all that, I'm the first to admit I have plenty left to learn and I'm keeping an open mind about the cause of this situation, I just ask that those people who have experienced problems do the same.

One other thought for you all, if the lack of power was due to the design of my components I think it would have showed up within those 25 years and on cars like my Pro Mod customer. Please remember that this car has run a 4.18 sec 1/8th mile using my system using smaller solenoid than the NOS & NX powered cars.

We also have many, many other customers making HUGE power increases on other vehicles/engines using the same components, so assuming the systems have all been fitted correctly, it has to be something to do with the interaction of the system and this particular application.

Regards

Trev