While I understand your point of view Jack, I don't think we need a new forum to divide us more and create even more animosity against each other.

I have engaged and continue to engage in political and religious discussions because there is no rule stating we shouldn't. Hint: (No rules regarding NO religion and NO Politics.) I have been adamant and always want to engage in such controversial topics every opportunity I get, especially when I got no truck to perforate.

But as I mature I'm starting grow old and lonely as I create more and more enemies than friends due to expressing my strong views against those who view people like me as the "enemy". I'm slowly starting to learn that it's best to keep my Political and religious views or lack of, to myself.

This site being a truck forum, talk about truck related stuff, give your most humble opinion, and kindly correct someone when they are in the wrong, seems to keep most folks in here friendly an kind to each other. Which is what I would love to see more of.

Soon as some one identifies him/herself of X believe system, most people will HATE, with a passion, the other member because they refuse to take into account and/or at least try to understand the other person's point of view. This then results into labeling and name calling, writing each other's names in their ignore list and not wanting to hear or do anything else with each other.

No, by no means am I pretending to be an angel, I am guilty of labeling people but one thing for sure, I do not blurt out loud, "you,they, are stupid/idiots." Unless I am personally attacked then I strike back with a witty comment or 2 (OK,....maybe 3 or 4 ) But even then, I still don't hold any hard feelings against said member, I'm still willing to engage in conversation, discussion or even grab a bite to eat if I had the opportunity to pass by their neck of the wood. If they were on my neck of the wood I would still offer them a place to stay; mi casa es su casa no matter what political affiliations or religious system you may have. Those members who personally know me can attest on my behave that I am not the evil person most members think I am.

My pet peeve has always been hypocrites with their "two-faced idealism" and "selective morality" and, as some of you well know, I love nothing but to ripe them apart and expose their hypocrisy.

Politics, in general, is a dirty business for which reason I don't consider myself a liberal nor conservative.

Label me however you want to label me, here is where I stand.

Big Government

I do have a big problem with authority for which reason I support smaller government.

Taxes

I have and continue to work very hard for my money I don't mind paying into a well managed system but 38% under any administration is what I call stealing my socks without removing shoes.

Welfare

I have always pride myself on having a strong sense of individualism and self-reliance. I still strongly believed that those who can't take care of themselves are to blame for their own misfortunes. For which reason I have always fend for myself and continue to work very hard for my money because I believe that disable still means able.

Yet, I am not against a welfare system but the kind of welfare system Mr. Roosevelt and members of congress intended it to be. Help your fellow man whenever and however you can; today is for you tomorrow is for me. Here is a few dollars, or food, or cloths, or work, or medicine, while you get back on your feet.

Yes, I am totally not against a welfare system, what I'm against is the people, both politicians and citizens, WHO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF SUCH A WELL INTENDED SYSTEM. Instead of, prosperity, good health, get well soon, here is a few dollars until you get back on your feet, welfare nowadays has such a bad connotation; it now means, poverty, single and depressed mothers, the ghetto......., well...... I know you would have no problem adding to the list.

Social Stability

Regarding other very important social issues such as the right of a woman to terminate an early unwanted pregnancy, sex, homosexuality, overpopulation, pollution, assisted suicide among many others, I completely disagree with most conservative opinion because they can't formulate a rational opinion without using the Bible and their God to support their agenda.

Separation of church and state.

I would love nothing best but for this country to revert back to the principles on which it was founded. The founding fathers who built the foundation of the United States strongly opposed and completely excluded "Christianity" or any kind of religion.

Our founding fathers were men of The Enlightenment (not men of Christianity) and studied SCIENCE. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true. Note, nowhere in the Constitution will you find the words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" not once.

For which reason, when they wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3).

The founding fathers wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the "official", national religion, because that was one of the main reasons they left England in the first place.



Thanks,

respectfully,

Leonardo.

 

Many were of Christian denominations and many felt that Christian Morals were a good structure to form a nation on even if they did not believe in Christ themselves.

You can find links that support both sides if you look hard enough.

 

It is fair to say that most of the Founders were Deists, in other words they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books.

They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity.

Yes, there were Christian men among the Founders. Just as Congress removed Thomas Jefferson's words that condemned the practice of slavery in the colonies, they also altered his wording regarding equal rights. His original wording is the underlined "All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." Congress changed that phrase, increasing its religious overtones: But remember, we are not governed by the Declaration of Independence, a "historical document" YES but NOT a constitutional one.

 

Big (((((HUG)))) for OG...................

 

Leonardo, I thank you for your well-reasoned and calm, thoughtful post. I find I have no disagreement with any of it (which may or may not delight you, since I'm not sure anyone wants me on THEIR side)!

But, I was being very tongue in cheek when I proposed the two "spin-off" threads. No, I was not serious about them at all. But I WAS trying to point out the pointless nature of a "discussion thread" where the response is: "You're stupid", (or worse). That kind of response simply shuts down discussion. There is no reasonable response to the "You're stupid" charge. It indicates the person expressing that viewpoint has a totally closed mind, and it is a waste of time to engage in further conversation.

A person with a closed mind is best suited to discussing things in an "echo chamber". Or, perhaps in a mirror, if they are particularly narcissistic. Sadly, I suspect some of our elected representatives fall into that latter category.

Norm, your points are well taken too. I'm certain our founding fathers DID look to God for guidance and inspiration. In their wisdom, I believe they tried to set things up so that no one individual's or no one group's idea of the "true" religion would be forced on others with different ideas. The operative word here is "Freedom".

So, I'm REALLY asking all members, "Think before you post." When we respond in an insulting manner, we are not encouraging discussion, we're simply trying to "shout down" the other guy. That approach takes no intellect and is unworthy of any adult, thinking human being.

- Jack

 

I will be teaching a posting class if any member needs help with making a proper post.

PM me and we'll get started... Peace and love my brothers and sisters...

 

Now see, this is what I mean. You can always count on Bucky to make an intelligent, mature, thought-provoking, valuable, and unifying post.

Will you call your class "Buck Droppings"?

- Jack

 

Hey i resemble that remark!!.

My classes will be for posting thoughtful positive posts with intellectual meanings. A proper response that addresses the posters question and or thoughts. They would be sightfull posts and honest with a touch of class beyond what any Canadian could mutter up.

 

Thanks Jack, thanks Buck.

Buck, I think your creative writing class sounds like a good plan. As you well know sometimes I'm not successful at formulate a paragraph. I know there are many out there just like me who know exactly what is in their minds but when their fingers start typing the words don't express what one is really attempting to communicate.

I will definitely need your assistance when I find it difficult to expressing my concern, or suggest improvement.

Thanks for your offer.







"Buck Droppings"

 

you only wish it were so....

regards

 

Wow I almost feel like you are a brother of mine from another mother. You hit the nail on the head on your points.

 

LOl, but we couldn't be brothers you know, my father did traveled a lot.

 

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem..._david_b_1.php

Watch these videos for fun. Could change your mind on some of your statements about the founding of the country and faith.

 

While I watch the videos, quick question?

Have you read the 1796 treaty with Tripoli written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams? http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

Article XI was not in anyway "just" a statement to pacify Muslims. They strongly meant what they wrote.

 

We're looking at two people's viewpoints here. Either one may or may not parallel YOUR viewpoints. I honestly don't see either as an "expert" on the matter, but both of them have given the subject some thought.

As is usually the case, each side probably has points made in its favor. I have not watched the videos yet, and probably won't have time to do so tonight, but when I do, I'll be able to judge each side on its own merit, taking into account my own prejudices, which I have and know that you all have too.

Since we each see things through the filter of our individual prejudices, there is no way we can absolutely know what is the "truth". And, you either accept this notion or not. What IS important, in my estimation, is that you acknowledge your prejudices. They are not bad or good, they just ARE (and we ALL have them, including me.) Once that "filter" IS acknowledged, the path to enlightenment is opened (notice I did not say "truth").

- Jack