I'm getting up early to ride dirt bikes in the morning.

Here is the man in the video's documented explanation of the treaty

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=125

 

"We've all seen the letters in the newspapers with quotes from the Founding Fathers and other respected historical American leaders that can sometimes make the most ardent Atheist think twice about trying to refute the historical reconstructionist's ideology of "Christian Nation" that comes along with, "This nation was founded on Christianity by Christian men!"

What a lot of Atheists don't know is that many of these "great" quotes (great in the sense that they would be devastating to our side if they were true) are fabricated and disseminated just like every other urban legend email you get about Big Foot, the godly banana, and the missing girl with leukemia.

David Barton is a Christian fundamentalist from the WallBuilders group. He wrote a book full of quotes from the Founding Fathers that really took the Atheist's take on the foundation of this country to task. Many people jumped to do the research to find out the validity of these quotes. Firms devoted to Madison and Jefferson became involved, universities got involved and ultimately the Library of Congress was the final resting place for these quotes.

David Barton was cornered and he admitted to fabricating the quotes, okay he actually called them "spurious," but we all know that means he made them up. He was ordered to create a pamphlet that listed all his bogus quotes. Unfortunate that pamphlet has had almost zero impact on those use the quotes daily in newspapers around the United States.

Here are some of the BOGUS quotes that you should immediately refute if you see them used in a letter to the editor, in an online forum, or anywhere else for that matter.

1) "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!" - Patrick Henry

2) "The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion." - Abraham Lincoln

3) "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." - George Washington

4) "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian." - Holy Trinity v. U. S. (Supreme Court case)

5) "The principles of all genuine liberty, and of wise laws and administrations are to be drown from the Bible and sustained by its authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be assessory [sic] to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer." - Noah Webster

6) "A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or eternal invader." - Samuel Adams

7) "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves ... according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison

8) "There are two powers only which are sufficient to control men, and secure the rights of individuals and a peaceable administration; these are the combined force of religion and law, and the force or fear of the bayonet." - Noah Webster

9) "Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin

10) "The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next." - Abraham Lincoln

11) "I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens." - Thomas Jefferson

The spearhead behind the effort to verify the quotes was Professor Robert S. Alley from the University of Richmond. He's the author of James Madison on Religious Liberty. Editors from The Papers of James Madison at the University of Virginia got involved and helped Alley verify all the quotes being used by Barton, which were being disseminated across the country as he toured (Rush Limbaugh used the bogus Madison quote on his show). Most of the quotes above were included in Barton's book The Myth of Separation. The whole thing started with an article in Church & State magazine written by Alley. WallBuilders was ultimately forced to admit that the quotes were bogus, although they listed a lot of them as "questionable" and a few as "false." The admission by Barton was produced in a pamphlet titled 12 Questionable Quotes. Barton then corrected his book and renamed it Original Intent for its second edition. Barton was also involved in the Herdahl case in Mississippi. Barton's video, 'America's Godly Heritage' was being shown in the school (Herdahl v Pontotoc County School District (http://www.schoolprayer.com/courts/decision.html)). The original article addressing all of this was written by Rob Boston in Church & State Magazine, July-August 1996 in the article David Barton Falsifies American History, Consumer Alert: WallBuilders' Shoddy Workmanship. But it's not just "the left" that is hammering Barton for his "shoddy workmanship." The Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs issued a critique of Barton's movie that highlighted most of the quotes. The BJCPA takes Barton to task and hammers his video. You can find Barton's bio online at http://www.wallbuilders.com/aboutus/bio/, where it says he's an "author and historian." It should be noted that he is not an historian. The bio even says he has a degree in Arts from Oral Roberts University and an honorary doctorate from the Pensacola Christian College. That's far from being an historian. WallBuilders has an article about the quotations on it, but if you read it it's blathered in nonsense to take away the sting Barton had to feel. You can't find that article easily unless you do a search for "questionable quotations" in "all categories."

By: Blair Scott, Alabama State Director, American Atheists, Inc.

Additional notes from Arlene-Marie, Michigan State Director, American Atheists :

David Barton has long been a thorn in my side. I have debated his work on over 22 TV programs and when testifying at the Frankenmuth Bible Study hearings, on two occasions. Barton is a king pin in the National Council of Bible Curriculum in Public Schools and they use his historically inaccurate video tapes to promote this unconstitutional program. At the first hearing in February 2004, I viewed one Barton's tapes filled with bogus quotes, in a room filled with believers and they brought the house down with their applause.

Beyond the NCBCPS, Barton is a popular revisionist and a leading advocate for emphasizing Christianity in US history by producing revisionist history videotapes and books that cherry-picks and distorts facts, while ignoring historical evidence. He is best known for his claims that, "Separation of church and state is a myth," and/or, "separation of church and state was invented by the Supreme Court."

These claims, and others, were big issues for me while defending separation of state and church during the tour of Roy's rock in Michigan. Michigan's supporters of this hunk of rock were spouting Barton's bogus quotes at each stop and the media never failed to pose their questions around Barton's claims. In fact, Barton's claims haunt me and I think all Atheists, in every aspect of our separation debates, and discussions from every level of the media.

However, I don't think everyone is aware of the fact that they are quoting Barton. I feel that over time his material has simply become a familiar part of their (media / believers) vocabulary. Maybe now is a good time for Michigan Atheists to consider continuing to gather supportive dialogue to expose Barton's fabricated quotes, develop talking points and write letters to the media exposing these bogus quotes."

http://www.michiganatheists.org/quotes2.html

 

http://www.sodahead.com/united-state...r/blog-320835/

 

Supporting evidence strengthen our beliefs, while negative evidence seldom weakens them, just like a ratchet in tightening a nut. To those whose belief system are much stronger than their willingness to reason, or their desire to learn, even go to the extent of flaunting their unwillingness to think. Thus, the inability to make informed choices makes the very idea of freedom of choice meaningless.

It is unfortunate that Freedom of speech, (Critical expression) is a fragile flower that may be easily crushed by charlatans and demagogues unafraid of the power of the state for their own religious, greedy, or cynical ends.

 

The links with no reliable sources and cherry picked quotes are cute. I can cherry pick quotes from founding fathers all day to make them sound like christians. I don't see what you are really trying to say in your last post... Just say what is on your mind instead of trying to be poetic or look smart.

The problem is you got up on your soap box because you got upset in another thread. Made your own thread, then you made blatant statements like,

The founding fathers who built the foundation of the United States strongly opposed and completely excluded "Christianity" or any kind of religion.

For a fact, many of the founding fathers were specifically christians. Your statement was false and that is what I corrected you on. I'm not trying to prove that all of them were christians or that we are a christian nation. I have no reason to. I am just displaying the facts.

When you just work with the facts, you will find out that you never lose an argument. Give it a try for once.

 

Exactly. As I said you can find links to support both sides but the fact remains that they were Christians, Deists and Atheists and that they chose to create a country that did not force anyone to chose a religion or allow any religion to influence the lawmakers. (True purpose of separation of church and state). Ben Franklin was an atheist but even he said that the structure of Christian morals was as good as any to follow.

 

[QUOTE=Norm;4583392]Exactly. As I said you can find links to support both sides but the fact remains that they were Christians, Deists and Atheists and that they chose to create a country that did not force anyone to chose a religion or allow any religion to influence the lawmakers. (True purpose of separation of church and state). Ben Franklin was an atheist but even he said that the structure of Christian morals was as good as any to follow.[/QUOTE]

You better be sure you personally heard him say that or the You-Tube crowd will be all over you!

 

[QUOTE=jgger;4583395]
Saying you support principles like don't kill, steal, cheat on your spouse or lie hardly makes one a Christian.

Yes they are Christian principles but they are pretty broad and general tips to be a good person too.

None of us can for sure say what the founding father's thought and believed. We are all too young to have met and interact with them.

David Barton has admitted that he has embellished many of the quotes he put out there showing the founding fathers were Christians. Like many others that try to influence opinion, much is accomplished through spinning things in a way that supports their opinion.

 

The quotes are not Cherry picked by me or many other sources, I would provide to you if I knew you could handle the truth about David Barton. They are quotes that David Barton is using to mislead the public. Quotes that either have been debunked as false, which he admitted to making up, and quotes that can't be found anywhere, marked as "questionable".

My most sincere apology for misleading you in "trying to be poetic and look smart" when I'm neither.

But what I'm trying to say is simply to keep asking questions but please remain skeptical.

Boy of boy, talk about blatant statement. I don't know where you get the magical powers to actually see me mad. As far as I can remember the last time I was mad was about 2 years ago when authority unfairly punished me but not the other person. The reason I open this thread was to let it be known who I really am and not the "evil" person most people in here think I am. If you can provide the evidence that I was "mad" for which reason I opened this thread, I would appreciate it.

I still stand strong by my statement, not only you but most importantly, David Barton is the one who continues to make blatant statements. He talks of himself as a "follower" of Jesus but is willing to lie to thousands (if not millions) of believers.

So you are not trying to prove that we are a Christian nation but you specifically asked me to listen to David Barton because it would change my statement?

David Barton's only purpose in life is to spread more ignorance, period. He has been debunked by credible and educated men with much more integrity than you could ever hope David Barton could have.


Fair enough here is a fact: David Barton is not only not an historian but has no training whatsoever in the field, he has never seen a fact he hasn't spun or just made up.

The Founders clearly did not heed what was written in the bible. If they were in fact "good" Christians, there would never have been an American Revolution.

But let say that indeed the members of the First Continental Congress were all bible-believing, "God-fearing" men, do you think there ever have been a revolution at all?

"For rebellion as is the sin of witchcraft." 1 Samuel, 15:23

Witchcraft is a crime punishable by death! How could they rebel if indeed they thought it was equal to witchcraft?

Doesn't the New Testament gives clear instructions to Christians on how to behave when ruled under a monarchy, as were the Founders?

1 Peter 2:13: "For the Lord's sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right."

What did Paul say in Romans 13:1?

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resist authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

Compare the above passages with the Declaration of Independence.

Quote:

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

-- Declaration of Independence, 1776

Anyone who can think for themselves can see that the Founders were not Christians.

 

I'm certainly not as well read as many of you in this debate, and I don't profess to be able to quote David Barton chapter and verse, but I remember from somewhere that he stated unequivocally that ONLY Christians could or should hold political/public office, all Jews and other factious religions were not proper heirs to elected offices in our land and should never be allowed to serve.

If this is the guy we are debating, then hell yes he would believe all our founding Father's were Christians, what would make you believe otherwise?

I don't believe our founding Father's had Christianity in mind when they devised the means for this country to be formed.

 

Most of your founding fathers may well have been Christians or simply Deists. I rather doubt they were athiests. They simply had the wisdom to want to have a separation of Church and State and tolerance for those who worship "God" but aren't Christians (Muslims, Jews, etc.) or are Polytheists.

Hey Og, I've never considered you to be particularly evil, just foolish enough to actually try and debate some folks here, knowing full well that ideology trumps facts, logic and common sense for a certain segment of the population...

regards

 

I see it more like, what a better way to gain more knowledge. Either I am misinformed or they are misinformed. If I am, I hope to learn from them and admit my mistakes. This is an excellent discussion, one in which I can apply critical thinking.

We should discuss the issues to learn from each other rather than trying to formulate a sentence to see who "wins" the argument.

 

P.S.

Sorry if I came a lil to strong on post #24.




The link you posted appears to show a further attempt to tie Jefferson to Christianity. If you allow me, I'd like to say, beware of David Barton. He is a very dangerous person, many religious and non-religious people alike don't take him seriously because he publishes books with misquotes and plain old lies which he admits to have fabricated. He publishes untrue information because his agenda is much more important to him than the truth. It's not even funny that you insist on using his books for reference when there is so much other accurate information available that you can post.

David Barton makes a lot of claims based on documents that are not available online. I have taken the time to obtain a couple of such documents. Neither one of them contained what Barton claimed they did.

Have you actually read the letter to make sure this is not just more BS from David Barton?

Why do you suppose Barton didn't quote anything from the letter to support his claim?

The Monticello site is good for research on Jefferson, and there are a few others including the Library of Congress's site where one can view Jefferson's actual documents first hand:

The Thomas Jefferson Papers http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collecti...s/mtjser1.html

 

OG, your statements on christianity and the Bible shows that you really don't know much about it. You are now cherry picking quotes from the Bible...

David Barton is a historian that happens to be a christian. He has videos, books, and writings that go down the lines of each FF. He can give a biography on all the FF's, what they believed government should be, what religion they were, what their jobs were, family history, ect.

I am willing to bet you have not read a single book of his. You just linked some atheist sites from google to find some dirt on him.

Just to tingle your senses, read up on Benjamin Rush. When you want some more christian founding fathers to research let me know.



Fact is there were christian founding fathers, that is where you are wrong and why I even posted a response in this thread.

We all know atheists want to prove that they were 'deists'. (which I find kinda ironic)
We all know christians want to prove that they were christians.
All because the FF's did a fine job and everyone wants to claim them for themselves. Fact is you could count the atheists on 1 hand, and the rest believed in God(christ or a deity). And I will leave it at that...

 

I got a pretty good idea of what the guy is all about just from his statements about Jefferson's work. The guy is completely wrong in more than one area. His judgement is obviously very clouded by his faith and his need to control other people. I just don't get why some people have the need to believe that people from the past were of the same beliefs, and have the arrogance and mindset to misrepresent historical facts.

But enough said, go ahead and believe that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian. Believe that Franklin was too. Believe hearsay from 100 years after Jefferson, and don't rely on the writings of Jefferson himself. Believe people like Barton and trust in rumor if you like.

End of discussion.