I guess that depends where you live. Some kid in Darfur, who watched his mom being raped, then cut up in the most in-humane way posible, only to then see his dad's throat slit, then had to use his best friends dead body as a hiding place.... may think of it slightly different. How about a kid, who was born right here in USA, to parents who keep him locked in the basement, feed him only Jalepno juice, and sometimes some old rib bones... may feel like God has forgotten him. I can think of many places, times, and occasions where God absence is slightly odd... Proof would be in the eye of the beholder.

To say evolution isn't plausible, is rediculous. Take wisdom teeth for example. Why do we have them ? Long time ago, we needed them. Back in the day, everyone had four. This was only a few generations ago. No questions about it. Some people had big enough jaws to allow them to grow in. Most had to have them removed (why the change ? We used to use them... now we don't ? Not evolution ? ) As time went on, dentist began noticing more and more kids with only 3 or 2 wisdom teeth. Now closer to today, dentist find more kids without any wisdom teeth, at all, then ever before. What about average height ? Man used to be much, mcuh shorter, but have since grown our "average height". Giraffes another perfect example. The older the remains of the giraffe, the shorter the neck. As time went on, the ones with longer necks lived longer, allowing them to produce more offspring, giving us the Giraffes we see today. Evolution ?

"If all living creatures must have a living parent, if living creatures are different, and if simpler forms were around before the more complex forms, then the more complex forms must have come from the simpler forms (e.g., vertebrates from invertebrates). There is simply no other way of dealing reasonably with the evidence we have. Of course, one might deny (as some do) that the layers of the earth represent a succession of very lengthy epochs and claim, for example, that the Grand Canyon was created in a matter of days, but this surely violates scientific observation and all known scientific processes as much as does the claim that, say, vertebrates just, well, appeared one day out of a spontaneous combination of chemicals"

- Ian Johnson, Malaspina University-College. Nanaimo, BC

 

Care to list some?

Nutrition, nutrition, nutrition.

I was going to let this one die, but, since there’s been a resurrection, here goes. I fail to see anything especially “Christian” about telling other people about your beliefs, giving to charity, working with the poor, or whatever; those are activities common to humans of all faiths and cultures. My point was that “works” should be something that you do that is genuinely different because of your beliefs, and is a natural outgrowth of genuine faith – not a list of tasks that you can point to so as to “prove” what a great Christian you are.

 

I'd like to nominate MercedesTech and ghartman for two of the best posts in this thread. Although you're speaking on deaf ears to those of "faith" because your words are common sense and or scientific in nature... and we all know science is of mans creation, not Gods. Common sense and science has no place in faith, therefore the "believers" will never entertain such a thought, let alone listen with openess.

 

There are tribes in Africa eating the same thing they ate thousands of years ago, yet height has still grown on an average basis.

Many other parts of the world have a similiar story. Same food, different heights.

Giraffes grew longers necks due to nutrition ?
Or rather, the ones with shorter necks, couldn't reach all the food way up in the tree's, so they died off earlier, then the guys with super long necks, able to eat the tippy tops of any tree, therefore along to nourish and last much longer.

The Crocadile is another prime example. A class of animal that has been around for as long as 250 million years. Early croc's were land dwelling animals (i know, surprising huh ?) But there fossils and remains have proven so, and shown that the crocadile first evolved it's crushing bite and jaws, well before it began getting a stream lined, swimming body. There legs and bone structure were different then today's version, yet there head and other crucial parts stay the same. As food became more and more hard to find, they began "hunting" in the water more and more. Spending more and more time in the ponds, rivers, and other waterways nearby. The ones that were able to swim better, and in turn catch more food, lived longer, and again, reproduced more. At the same time, the ones who lacked swimming skills, slowly starved and died off. Natural selection. Evolution.

Look what man is capable of with dogs. looks how we have changed and manipulated them as we see fit, giving them traits we want, and taking away traits we find less desirable. Making all new breeds, but all within the same species. We are capable of causing our own Mini-evolution. For those of faith, do you honestly beleive God is not capable of something man does everyday ???

 

In your first post, you gave three "pro-evolution" examples. My intent wasn't to somehow try and disprove evolution, merely to say that your evidentiary examples weren't exactly stellar.

As for people growing taller, that is very closely tied to nutrition and general health, and doesn't have much (or anything) to do with evolutionary principles. If you doubt it, simply look at the average height of the Japanese over the past 60 or so years. Saying nutrition and average general health hasn’t improved in the past few thousand years, while possibly true in some very isolated and restricted cases, isn’t in general - even in the darkest bowels of Africa.

Giraffes with longer necks, while clearly being a product of natural selection (shorter ones starve to death when they can’t reach their food) isn’t great evidence for evolution – if they had grown wings or something, that would be a different story.

Wisdom teeth are sort of half and half. While “useless” organs are interesting points in favor of evolution, deciding that they are useless is a trickier affair (although I grant you the argument over wisdom teeth is fairly cut and dry.) Dentists finding fewer and fewer children with wisdom teeth is interesting, but where’s the pressure for the modification? Are people with more wisdom teeth less likely to breed?

The crocodile fossil record is a much better example, but can still be “discarded” with “clever” arguments, such as extinct species and incomplete (or "special") fossils.


Evolution evidentiary debates aside, I still fail how the Bible’s creation story precludes evolution, or that evolution precludes divine creation. Creation in a literal week doesn’t jive well, but that’s about it.

 

What you said here is NOT evolution. It is adaptation. Two VERY different things. Evolution would be pond scum eventually being a man.

 

May be different, but both describe the change for the better.
Pond scum becoming man could be adaptation if the circumstances were right, given millions of years. But in no way could it happen in 6k years... or could it?!

 

I have a question maybe someone can answer? Why is it that so many stories within the Bible, are mentioned nowhere else in recorded history? One very simple example is the story of Joseph. Nowhere in any written document of antiquity is there a mention of a slave in Egypt who came to power and became second only to the Pharaoh in all of Egypt. THe Egyptians were very meticulous and excellent record takers and not a single word is mentioned of Joseph. Even the story of Abraham. There is no extra-biblical story of a man named Abraham from Mesopotamia, leaving for Egypt because of the famine. Why is this?

Also, on a side note, I recently learned of a very important translation of a very famous Exodus passage. Most people have heard the story of how Moses parted the Red Sea and led the Israelites to the promise land. What many people don't know is the correct translation from Arabic to English is not "Red Sea," its "Sea of REEDS." Scholars have known this for the past twenty to thirty years but nobody seems to pay any attention. Think about it, a sea of reeds would be easy to cross for people on foot, but futile for chariots trying to cross the marshy bog. And for anyone that knows some geography, it would make absolutely no sense for Moses to move south AWAY from water supplies, into the desert, cross the Red Sea, and then back north and essentially back tracking. What would make sense is for him to stay close to the Mediterranean coastline where there are water sources and cross at a point which is not as deep. That point you may ask? Well most people believe it is Lake Temsah. However, as with most non supported Biblical stories, there have been absolutely zero archaeological findings in that area of brass nuts from the chariots, swords, nothing. So the mystery continues. Please anyone feel free to respond with any comments.

(Note: I'm not saying these things never happened but we have no other historical information about it. Yes there is ARCHAEOLOGICAL information on the famine in ancient Mesopotamia, but no Abraham.)

 

There are those of us with faith that also believe in evolution. It is a very
sensitive issue with some. But I'm here to tell you, when you find Faith
it doesn't matter what ever science proves, and the Bible teaches, the rest
of it don't matter. It is something maybe even evolution built into us. Or it is
something a creator built into what we have become. But it is real.

 

Anything can be "dicarded with clever arguements". I once had a teacher who, theoretically, was able to "prove" 1+1=1 . I was simply trying to give the most basic and simple example I could, things that anyone and just about everyone has some idea about. I could go farther into detail, but whats the point. Tumba said it best, no matter what science can "prove" using logical and thought out reaosning, people with faith cannot be converted. Simple as that, and that is not my intent, rather to offer other ideas and at least ask you to think.

To contribute being taller, running faster, jumping higher, to nutrition, is an easy cop-out. Yes, we have far better nutrition, and have a better idea of being "healthy". But wouldn't this be us evolving ? Becoming better ? Living longer ? Overcoming some of nature's threat by our own will power. Look at how we used to live, talk, interact with the world. Look at how we used to think. This is not evolution ? We are better, stronger, smarter, everything more then we used to be. We have done so much, to think this is not us evolving.... I don't know what else to call it. To look back 60 years for proof... is a joke at best. That isn't even one whole generation's life span. At the very least, look back over 2,000 years. This would still be a minimum amount of years for this to take place. Look at the first hominid species, over 6 million years ago, then compare that to us now.... change ? Evolution ?

Giraffes having longer necks, as you said, is natural selection. Natural selection can be a part of evolution. If they weren't to die, we would have all kinds of Giraffes walking the earth, but instead, we are left with the ones with longer necks. How it happens, is a genetic mutation. Mom and dad get it on, they have a kid. During this complex process, the kid has a "mutation" and the "stuff" that tells his neck to stop growing at "x" height, instead allows it to grow a little longer. Now, he mates with a female giraffe, who has a slightly longer neck, and was able to live long enough to mate, and they have a kid with even a longer neck, so on and so forth until we get the product we see today. no this didn't happen in two years, 10 years, 100 years but rather thousands upon thousands.

As for wisdom teeth, in today's world, natural selection is not as dominant, so dieing off early isn't the reasoning behind the kids losing wisdom teeth all together. But it is the human body changing. Use whatever wording you wish, it is our body adapting to change, changing its body structure to better suit today's needs, that is evolution. We are evolving.

If you accept fossils as "real" vs. man made and planted there to deceive christians (yes, I have gotten this arguement before), then the Croc arguement is pretty cut and dry. This was a theory started around 1920 something, and has since been fortified and strengthened with recent discoveries and findings. They have fossils showing how the croc's bone structure slowly changed from favoring walking and land use, to swimming and wading in water. Change ? Evolution ?


That is incredibly black and white, narrow minded, simple thinking of you. Yes, I believe "pond scum" eventually did make man, no I don't think the Swamp-Thing came walking out one day, then the next was Adam. I beleive this process took millions and millions of years. Adaptation is not evolution ? So change is not eveolution ? Changing to better suit your surrounding, to allow you to live longer, mate more, is not evolution ? So then... what would be ? You might want to do more research into the Theory of Evolution.


Like I said, Man has made the dog evolve. We have made breeds, we have changed characteristics to better suit what we want. We have done this with foods, and plants. We have made new plans that never would have been here, we have helped force eveolution in some ways, could God not do this ? You think we are more powerful then Him ??? Can't He force change upon us and His animals to better suit His design ? Help us evolve and change, to allow us to live longer better lifes ? Could this not be a possibility ?

 

It is a proven fact that all theist's have a mental defect which prevents them from thinking rationally.
Please consult with your local mental health professional and seek treatment at once.

This message was brought to you by HABIBI's campaign to help rid the world of ignorance, hallucinations and delusions of grandeur.

Love
Habibi

 

 

You forgot an a.

 

I would like to ask you this simple question.
According to a current scientific model. This Universe we live in came from a Singularity.
Do you believe in this theory?
Just a curiosity.

 

Does anyone have any discussion on this statement?
If we can talk about why there is evolution, I believe it would start with this issue.
I think it has relavance to the question at hand.