thanks for jumping in guys, but as a heads up, it's a waste trying to talk to this franko job. I've tried to debate with him before and it is literally as frustrating as trying to communicate to someone who speaks another language.

Just run for the hills!

 

[QUOTE=Grim]Good quote. Let's go through it point by point.

1) Crusade against the Islamic nation--a rallying cry to Muslims to fight the US and establish and anti-US holy war. There is no crusade against the Islamic nation. We fought in Bosnia to defend Muslims, we fought in Kuwait to defend one set of Muslims from another, and we gave the Muslims in Afganistan the weapons they needed to repel the Russians. This is propaganda by OBL to recruit more troops.

2) Land of the two Holy Mosques--OBL doesn't want anyone that isn't Muslim in Saudi Arabia, another fanatical religious belief.

3) Oppressive, corrupt regime--OBL disagrees with the Saudi royals for many reasons, primarily their willingness to deal with the West (selling oil) and because they aren't holy enough.

When do we expect the attacks against other democracies such as Australia, Japan, Sweden, Mexico, ec. ec. ad infinitum.

Strange how we are the only hated one, isn’t it?

Do you honestly believe they attack us because of our democracy and that it has nothing to do with our foreign policies driven by our oil interests as well as support of one middle east country against another as dictated by our self serving motives?

There is also one other facter involved here that no one has mentioned, do you know what it is?

 

The attacks are already happening on other liberal democracies.

Australian tourists were attacked through the Bali bombings.
The UK was attacked through the London tube/bus bombings.
Spain was attacked through the train bombings.
Israel is attacked constantly.
India was attacked via the Mumbai train bombings.
Canada, a country which has a very limited foreign policy, recently foiled an attempt to hold parliment hostage and behead the prime minister.

Those are 6 examples from the last 5 years from memory. I'm sure there are more.

Japan has no significant Muslim population.

Grim

 

 

Please explain how attacking Iraq (causing thousands of deaths), inciting civil war in Iraq ( causing thousands of deaths) spending +350 billion (and thousands of our own deaths) has made us less likely to be the target of terrorism.

I’d also like your observations on the WMDs lies, the lies about the war only costing a few billion, an explanation for why we supported Saddam for many years all the while knowing of his deeds if that is to be one of your reason.

Furthermore I’d like to know if you feel we should invest another 350 billion trying to colonize Iraq and also, as our military is being depleted, instigate a draft in order to continue the Iraq colonization and also to insure we have a sufficient military to meet any other needs.

Then please give me an idea on who we are to next attack in pursuit of the war on terror and how we are to pay for it.

Don’t forget to address the fact that while we are squandering all our resources on Iraq we are being invaded by Mexico and there are about a billion Muslims in the world who will one day seek revenge for our foreign policies which are used against them in order to further our Imperialism.

Or don’t respond at all as I am confident that, as we are now seeing, most people have discovered the pack of lies we were sold and that the war is fiasco.

 

Nice technique. I prove one of your main points regarding terrorism is you wrong and you change the subject.

/ignore on

Grim

 

You grossly underestimate the intelligence of the average American if you think that he/she is in agreement with you.

One reason for invading Iraq has been the WMDs. If you do not believe that there were at one point WMDs there and being used by Saddam, you are simply insane. If you believe that he did not hide them at a friendly neighbor's house while Hans was ****ing around, well, then you're just foolish. If a mother tells her pothead son that she's going to search his bedroom in 3 weeks, I bet he's going to find a new place to stash his pot, am I correct?

The primary reason for liberating Iraq, in my opinion, was to get started on creating an Arab ally in the ME. Ever since Franklin Delano Trumann made a mess out of the ME, we've had zero success in organizing peace treaties or opening up effective communications. In order to topple fanatic Muslims (which is a necessity), we have to stop the warping of Arab minds. History lesson time:

Under what conditions have we found that minds are most easily warped?

Think back...come on...pre-WWII...crap economy....racial unrest....political instability...fear of one's government....you guessed it...**** Europe!

If we sanction the crap out of a country and deny them the greatness that is the American culture, we end up with post-WWI Germany (the climate in which Hitler grew), Cuba, Venezuela, and the Muslim Middle East.

Now, if we go in, kick ***, and open these areas up to freedom and prosperity, we have post-WWII Germany, Japan, and South Korea.

See the difference?



Now, if you want to argue about how the war has been handled...go for it. I'm far from capable of organizing a war, and I'm nearly positive that you aren't either. My only comment on that is that since the advent of widespread battlefield cameras, we've been unable to effectively fight a war due to a lot of bedwetting on the home front and political pressure.

 

I see that the situation is worse now than before we spent 350 billion and caused the deaths of countless thousands in order to create civil in Iraq with no end in sight.

I see that this was possibly the largest transference of wealth from the populous to special interests in the history of the world.

I see that the military industrial complex has staged a raid on the national treasury and we have accomplished noting other than the aforementioned.

I see that Saddam was no more a threat to us than the regimes that are now in power in Iraq and furthermore had we wished to remove or marginalize him there would have been far less costly approaches rather than bombing and rebuilding a whole country and inciting civil war.

I see that this war has finished the Bush family’s dynasty, given the Democrats control of congress, probably will cost the Republicans the White House, and has effected numerous state races in favor of the Democrats.

Yes it was a good idea.

 

 

Did you catch the recent election? You may be overestimating your own intelligence if you think the average american thinks otherwise. Speaking as an average american citizen though, thank you so much for speaking on all of our behalf!

Is that the reason we are going with now? Someone needs to send a memo out so that we can all get our stories straight. Our last story on why we are in Iraq with the whole WMD thing didn't quite pan-out the way we had hoped. So we did all this to pickup a buddy in the Middle East huh? And I'm betting you would call our efforts an overwhelming success? Perhaps we're watching two different stations, but from what I've seen.. it doesn't seem like they really like us too much over there. If this is our best hope for an ally in the middle east.. we could have a problem. We've had allies in the Middle East for years (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc.) I'm thinking there could be a little more to it then that.

 

Or perhaps I'm overestimating the average American's intelligence , but I do try to remain optimistic.


The idea of finding the WMDs certainly did not pan out well, although we did rid the world of the man using them. The problem now is figuring out just which country is harboring them.

And do you really call Saudi Arabia an ally? We need their oil, they need our money. There is little common ground other than that. Its far from the England/USA situation that we need there. Could we have toppled SA's government and started there with fixing the ME? Absolutely! But that would not have fared to well for our oil supply. Can't conduct a war too well without an adequate supply of oil. And I'm sure diplomatic methods will be suggested, but those have been a dismal failure in almost every area of the world, especially the ME.

 

Brilliant rebuttal, but may I suggest glasses?




Ahh yes, the evil companies that benefit from war. And the evil, evil workers that benefit from these companies. Why can't the TVA and Mr. Roosevelt save us all like he did last time? We really do need a competitive bid process as well as congressional committee review of all dealings in time of war. The first case of .223s would just be hitting the ground today in Iraq of that were to happen.

And while it is true that there are other methods to removing a leader from power, the approach taken has proven to be fare more effective than the "send 1300 Iraqi nationals in small boats to overthrow the government" or the "poisoned cigar" methods.

And while you may see Saddam as no more of a threat than the current Iraqi government, I'd bet 180,000 Kurds would beg to differ.

And thankfully the "Bush dynasty" will end. We will, of course, forget about the 22nd Amendment and the role that it would play on the dynasty, and concentrate one what I would guess to be something we do agree on....the fact that Bush needs to go. He has proven to be too easily swayed by polls and the ups and downs of the American morale that would vary depending on what they saw on the news that night. F' Tom Brokaw and Katie Couric and do what is right and what we need to do to get the job done. Bring out the ghost of Patton if necessary and give our men and women in the military the leadership they need to succeed.

 

For those that forget all of the reasons we went into Iraq, I am reposting the actual list of reasons from President Bush's UN speech. Notice that WMD's are just one of several reasons.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0020912-1.html

Grim

 

Well lets get down to it shall we? Some of you people believe whatever comfortable lies the Government tells you because thinking otherwise causes you too much pain.

Yes in your mind the U.S. could never do anything immoral or unjust. It’s the rest of the world that is “evil” This offers you a safe and untroubled view of the world regardless of the unpleasant realities that exist. This is also why you label anyone, such as me, who disagrees with the war, as a Liberal. “Liberal Bad” "Conservative Good”

Furthermore look at some of the comments I have seen on this forum such as “I don’t care how many Iraqis die” and “we should just nuke them all” These types of comments are illustrative of either low intelligence (inability to empathize) or a sociopath personality.

By the time I was thirteen I understood the means that the ruling powers use to propagandize and control the masses. Yet you seem unable to grasp the fact that we are frequently lied to and misled by those who have the something to gain by doing so, as in the case of war profiteers such as the Defense contractors (read Halliburton et al) “Government is nothing more than the shadow that big business casts over the populous.”

Lets face it you would have been cheering for the war in Vietnam and opposed to ending the conflict because you would have believed whatever self serving propaganda the Government regurgitated for your consumption.

So you defend this ludicrous war we have perpetrated in Iraq resulting in tens of thousands of deaths, billions wasted and more hatred generated towards the U.S.

If you don’t think we’ve created more potential Terrorists by this war then you are so far removed from reality you may not think at all.

The war in Iraq is an abomination and a huge mistake that has cost you more than you realize and yet you continue to defend those who have brought you this misfortune.

 

Yup...not an original thought in my head. But thank you for offering a great rebuttal as well as factual support for your ideas Mr. Moore. Is there any wonder why many of us laugh at everything you spew?