If you reread what I wrote I said watch the sweeping statements. Not everyone going in the military is unable to go to college, like you stated. I finished my bachelor's degree one year after I got out of the military. I did finish my associate's while in the military. To answer your question though, many NCO's do not want to have to go back to the bottom and prove themselves. Some just wanted the degree to promote to the highest enlisted rank possible. You want to see power look at an E-9. They have more power then many officers, and if they did get and O they would probably never reach the level of power given to them in the enlisted ranks. Some people I've know also did not want the "O" because they felt the pay for that position was not worth the BS.

 

Yes, really and I don’t mean to offend those with degrees but the facts are the facts and degrees now days are just a bit better then a high school diploma.

As was mentioned, and I have seen it first hand, if you have two possible candidates for a position, one with a degree and the other with military background you can just about count out the one with the degree as they have not yet proved much as per responsibility and knowledge.

Knowledge comes from experience and not necessarily a school. Schools teach you some basics and give you a foundation of which to build on but they do not provide experience nor really show what kind of responsibility one has.

I was hired over someone with a degree and started at a pay level above what the other person with a degree would have started at. Business looks for many things but a few of the top ones are:

Experience and responsibility

Neither of which a degree will provide. A degree is a piece of paper that means little until one has a chance to prove themselves so when put up against another person with experience and responsibility they don’t “generally” do so well.

Don’t believe the hype because I have seen studies that have shown those with degrees actually earn equal to or less then those without degrees because they already have a 2 – 4 year lag behind the other person and they have huge “school” bills to pay that their earnings go towards.

Also another thing to note, that I have seen studies on, is a person with a degree may start off with a higher base pay but within a short amount of time 4 – 6 years the person without a degree will be earning about the same as the one with the degree which further puts the person with a degree behind the other when it comes to TOTAL “net” earnings…

 

How come everyone around here gives Burt a pass?

I know I get a pass but, I deserve it.

Burt don't deserve no stinkin pass.

 

Burt? Who's Burt?

 

That's him. On the left.

 

Well, after kicking **** and taking names in the Fox forums, I may as well chime in here...

I served in the military for 10 years. I'd do it again, and sometimes (OK, most times) wish I hadn't left when I did. I've done well outside, but I was doing well inside...

As a veteran who has served in/been shot at- in the Middle East, and who was well within artillery range from North Korea for a stones throw from the DMZ for 12 months in South Korea, I did not take Kerry's words as what he said- being a slap in the faces of the military.

But, there are many people (obviously) who did believe he was saying the military was chuck full of dumb bastards who didn't posses the mental capacity to survive college, and make better choices... Of course the GOP took that and made it fit their political agenda, and, like so many easily duped automatons, the easily-led public ate it up.

Folks, if you take a step back for a minute and focus, you'll realize a nice chunk of the military has bachelor's degrees (The ENTIRE Commissioned Officer Corps.) It's a minimum requirement. A lot of the Warrant Officers have degrees as well. Many enlisted men and women have some college- you need it to gain promotion points to make E-5 & E-6, and an AAS is a good thing to have if you ever plan to make E7 or E8, unless you're in combat arms (They make rank quickly in that field, I've know E-7's with 9 years of service...)

Many of the enlisted members who luckily/fortunately gain their degree while in, if they do so before age 31, can go to OCS (Officer Candidate School) and become a commissioned officer. I've seen Warrant Officers jump from CW3 to 03; I don't know how the HELL they did it, but it happened.

I came straight in from High School, 2 days out of my cap & gown. I'd taken the ASVAB a year earlier because I was supposed to go to Warrant Officer Flight school to be a chopper pilot (It's a long story). That fell through, so I enlisted as an E-1, buck private. My GT Score was 118, and all of my line scores were 114 or higher- meaning I qualified for any job the US Army had to offer. You needed a 110 to gain that status, and back then, 130 was the highest you could get on ASVAB. My IQ was 141 which is not quite genius (147) but, pretty close, and I had good grades.

John Kerry (and I'm no fan of his, as you well know) also served in the military, actually went to war- the worse (led) war in this countries history, so I've gotta respect him for that. Even if he did come back and talk smack about how the war was being led, from what I've read about the war, he probably only said what a lot of folks were thinking, but wouldn't say.

So, knowing what it takes to become an officer (a degree- and they don't typically give those away); and knowing that officers don't really know schyt until they are trained by NCO's (Who typically have a HS Diploma, only- but are well trained) , and having worn the uniform himself, I tend to believe it when he says he was taking a jab at Washington, and not the troops, although the jab was in poor taste...

Heck, my wife has a degree from Berkeley, and she was enlisted. I knew a number of degreed people who were enlisted. One of my best friends from high school is a Major in the US Army, and he has his Bachelor's and Master's degree (Masters earned in service), and has graduated Command & Staf college as well.

So, I don't think Kerry meant the military was dumb for being "stuck" in Iraq. After all, the military didn't decide to go, they were told to go, and they went, and they keep going. I think he meant we had no plan going in, now we can't get out (without blood & dirt on our hands) so, in essence, we are stuck...

Even at that, I don't believe that's due to poor study habits in school... That's due to a knee-jerk reaction, continuation of 1992 doctrine, and improper planning/due diligence...

Bravo-Hotel 6-9er, out.

 

We didn't use the 'point' system for promotions when I was in.
I remember the 1SGT called me and another guy into his office and told us we were the top two contenders for promotion. He said he couldn't decide so he gave us a test and highest score got the promotion. It had ten questions on it, we had 20 minutes and he walked out of the room.

After we finished he came in and graded them.

He said, "You both got nine right." "Jones, you get the promotion."

I said, "Why does he get it, and not me?"

Top said, "You both missed the same question. I chose based on the answer you each gave to that question."
"Jones' answer was, 'I don't know.' "
"Raoul, your answer was, 'Neither do I.' "

"Raoul, report to the Mess Sergeant for KP."

 

Raoul, your a trip.

 

Now THAT"S classic Raoul right there.

 

I agree with Burt, with one caveat. I'm making good $ now, but, I was making good $ before I got my degree, due to blessings, timing, opportunity, knowing someone, and my military background.

Today's job market is changing- it is quite different form what is was when I entered the civilian job market in December 1996. I hired on at a company that seemed to prefer ex-military (due to the high-number of former military working there), but some corporate cultures steer away from Ex-Military because they don't think we can break out of whatever "mold" they see or believe we're poured in. Especially when it comes to leadership... (I was always dinged for being, "insensitive" or "sarcastic", even though I tried hard not to be... Not my fault I worked with a bunch of candy-assed 40 - 60 year-old babies, who didn't want to work, and used sick time like it was a vacation day...

So, while experience is the best teacher, that degree will get your foot in the door. I'm now armed with both, and working on my MBA. I'm a grown-man now, so I can't go back to "entry-level" pay because I don't have "entry-level" bills. Having education and experience is one hell of a 1-2 punch. If I ever get RIF'd in my current role, I may not land a job making quite as much as I make now, but- hopefully I won't get cut down so low, that I end up losing house, car & everything else...

A LOT of jobs now say, "Degree Required" and others say "Degree Preferred". If you want to have the best ammunition, you'd better get both.

I'll end by saying this, a degree doesn't mean you're any smarter than anyone else is. Hell, I felt (and still feel) I'm smarter than a LOT of the people I know with Master's and PhD’s. Having a degree means you are focused, you can deal with distractions and still reach the end goal. You are capable and committed, and moreover, you are trainable, and you have command of the English language, to include writing and speaking.

 

Automatons? What a double standard! Since 2004, I'm being called an idiot, and a follower because of decisions I've made and the opinions I have. Is it really that difficult to believe that some of us, perhaps many of us, come to certian conclusions before it's popular to do so?

If this is the type of thing that fits the republicans agenda, how would you characterize the democrats agenda? What stories "fit" the democrats agenda?

People can bash republicans and Bush all they want. When you make broad statements about the "easily duped automatons" you seem to include people like me and if that's the case it's appears to me a bold assertion.

 

Hah!

You sound like my Platoon Sgt .
I remember when Pvt Smith's father died. They notified our Sgt and he called the platoon to formation then he blurted out,
"Smith, your father's dead!"
Well, Pvt Smith passed out right in formation and dropped like a ton of bricks.

A couple of weeks later our Sgt was notified that Pvt Carter's sister had passed away. The Sgt called the platoon to formation and shouted,
"Carter, your sister is gone. She's dead!"
Well, Carter fell to his knees in front of everyone and started sobbing uncontrolably.

The Colonel got word of the sergeants antics and called him into his office.
He read him the riot act about his callous, uncaring, abrasive attitude and demanded it not happen again.

A couple of weeks later the Sgt was notified that Pvt Jones mother had passed away.
He called the platoon to formation.
But he remembered what the Colonel had told him.

So the Sgt said,
"Uh...uh....Every man...who's mother is still living...take one step forward NOT SO FAST, JONES!"

 

Welcome to the club.

I've been 'weak minded' for five years.

 

ROFLMMFAO...

 

I don't support the DNC's agenda, whatever that may be, either... There are some things I'm conservative about and some things I'm liberal about. You'll never see me check on my ballot (Straight Democratic Ticket) or (Straight Republican Ticket) because I don't think either sides candidates support my beliefs 100%. So, I pick (who I believe) is the best choice, regardless of their political affiliation. My one vote may not make a difference, but it is cast every time.

I just think it's funny that people so quickly make decisions based upon their understanding (whether its factual or not) without giving equal time to both sides... Before the guy even had a chance to clarify what he meant, everyone just knew he was saying, in so many words, military service = Failure to develop other choices.

I have no love or loyaly for Republican or Democratic Politicians. I'm for whoever can do the best job... I follow no party line.

You've gotta think folks, and read between the lines- and ask questions when things are not clear. We'll all get different meanings from different statements. If that were not true, there would only be one Christian Faith, but- from the same Bible, we have:

Catholics
Baptists
Methodists
Episcopalians
Seven Day Adventists
Jehova's Witnesses
COGIC
Mormons

and on, and on, and on... Why? Different interpretations of the same (or very similiar) text.

If we can't agree on what we read, surely we'll never agree on what we hear.
But, we should at least hear both sides, before deciding... That's all I'm saying.