...5w-30 is thicker than 5w-20. , so what? That has never been your big screw-up on this thread.

For the last time, your error has been recommending the SAE 10w-XX instead of the SAE 5w-XX. I have maintained this was the flaw in your position from the very beginning, and no amount of selective memory on your part will "prove" otherwise. Ford's engineers look out for Ford's best interests, and this means ensuring the engine does not fail due to lubrication problems among other things. In a thread about oil specs, I wonder how you can not see this point for yourself.

The SAE 5w-30 or SAE 10w-30 *will* have greater viscosity at operating temperature than SAE 5w-20 or SAE 10w-20, or SAE 10, that is obvious from their name. I use 5w-30 in my truck; the flow characteristics between the weights are not so great at operating temperature as they are during a cold start. However, the performance in the operating temperature (again, the second number of the SAE rating) has never been the issue about which I said you blew it, Navi Man. Using 10w-30 when 5w-30 would show acceptable film strength at start-up is silly; why employ a heavier oil in the cold? Again, you can offer no substantial proof. Read on for a reason to doubt your "lubrication engineer" friend.

01 XLT Sport: The owner is only covered if and only if the engine lubircation is determined NOT to be a part of the problem with regard to the Magnuson - Moss Act. This has legal precedent, and the "lubrication engineer" should know better than to carelessly throw in differing weights (from the API website, lubricants section, http://api-ep.api.org/industry/index...07007000000000):

"API's Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System (EOLCS) is a voluntary licensing and certification program that authorizes engine oil marketers who meet specified requirements to use the API Engine Oil Quality Marks on their containers....This program is a cooperative effort between the oil industry and vehicle and engine manufacturers Ford, General Motors, and DaimlerChrysler; the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association; and the Engine Manufacturers Association. Performance requirements, test methods, and limits are cooperatively established by vehicle and engine manufacturers, technical societies like the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) and industry associations like the American Chemistry Council and API. Oils meeting these requirements are recommended by vehicle manufacturers."

Ford recommends an SAE rating (I mentioned this in an earlier post), and this can include 5w-30. If you look on your precious 10w-30 motor oil, it should have a seal which says "API Service SL Energy Conserving" aronud the outside and "SAE 10w-30" in the middle. THIS IS THE API SERVICE SPEC! THE API service spec refers to the SAE spec! Look it up yourselves in an ASTM book....

Checkmate....what's really funny is that the source of your "research" told you, in fact, what was wrong with your 10w-30 position, and you still missed it....so did he! You finally did it, this time. Check that website out for yourself, ok?

WHAT IT ALL MEANS....

Therefore, if you use 10w-30 instead of 5w-30 (as you recommended, Navi Man), and there are shavings or impurities in your oil, don't go runnin' to Ford...."medic" has seen a truck (his company's, I think) been refused warranty service, and you can bet Ford will check that oil for $10 (they can have it done more cheaply than you and I) if it gets them out of a few grand in warranty claims....and they wouldn't refuse the warranty work (and believe me, THEY DO) if it would land them in court.

Ford has lawyers, too, and even a few hundred nuisance lawsuits and bad press would cost them more than they care to think about...you can bet if they make a stand on such an obvious and common issue, it's been checked out. This isn't Erin Brockovich, folks; people have been changing motor oil for decades, and the precedents have been set.

Why don't you ask Caterpillar, Cummins, or any other engine maker how far the viscosity weighting of the oil should vary from the specs they recommend. Maybe you'll finally listen to somebody....without calling them insipid names.

 

Doc, you amaze me.

I thought maybe this thing could end peacefully, but for some reason you are more interested in slamming me. That's fine. I think by your posts, people have come to the conclusion as to what you really are. The funny thing is, you never did answer my question on how you feel about Ford recommending 5w-20 in some of the newer engines. My question had nothing to do with 10w-30, but you were to interested in harping on that issue that you failed to answer the question.

One thing you do need to be reminded of is how I came into this thread and what my original stand was. I said that 10w-30 would be a better choice than 5w-20. I never said that 10w-30 was a better choice than 5w-30, in fact in my last sentence I said that 5w-30 would also be a good choice. You are so blinded by your insistence to argue your point, that you forget what was actually said.

So Doc, are you going to answer the question about 5w-20 and why the Ford engineers are now recommending this over your 5w-30?

 

The following is from:

www.repairfaq.org/filipg/AUTO/F_oil_facts.html

The weights given on oils are arbitrary numbers assigned by the S.A.E. (Society of Automotive Engineers). These numbers correspond to "real" viscosity, as measured by several accepted techniques. These measurements are taken at specific temperatures. Oils that fall into a certain range are designated 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 by the S.A.E. The W means the oil meets specifications for viscosity at 0 F and is therefore suitable for Winter use.

Multi viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they should be chosen wisely. Always use a multi grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. In the winter base your decision on the lowest temperature you will encounter, in the summer, the highest temperature you expect. The polymers can shear and burn forming deposits that can cause ring sticking and other problems. 10W-40 and 5W-30 require a lot of polymers (synthetics excluded) to achieve that range. This has caused problems in diesel engines, but fewer polymers are better for all engines. The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. It is the oil that lubricates, not the additives. Oils that can do their job with the fewest additives are the best.

The following is from me:

There also was a chart that gave information for cranking and pumping viscosity. It was as follows:

5W –25 to –35 degrees C
10W -20 to –30 degrees C

Obviously its better to use a 30 weight then a 20 weight at higher operating temperatures. To conclude from this information I would have to make an educated guess that it would be better to use a 10W-30 rather then a 5W-30.
There is a 20 point span in viscosity for 10W-30 compared to a 25 point span in viscosity for a 5W-30. Since my Ford dealer is using a 5W-30 its telling me I should use a 30 weight for the higher operating temperature. Since both 5W and 10W are both suitable for winter conditions, and I haven’t seen the temperature get below –20 degrees C since I have been in New Hampshire, then a 10W-30 would seem a better choice then a 5W-30 since the 5W-30 is more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the higher polymer content.

Again another point of discussion.

 

XLT, good point. I've always known that 10w-40 was not a good choice due to the process of manfacturing oils, staring with a SAE 10 and adding chemicals to make it a SAE 40 at operating temps. I never considered this with 5w-30.

My next question will be 5w-XX vs. 10w-XX. I personally know that 5w-30 pours out of the container better than 10w-30 in the middle of winter around here. We normally get at lease a few nights/morning down to -15f.

To get to my question....We all know that ford has recommended 5w-XX for all gas V-8 engines. Is my oil pump able to pump 10w-XX on a cold winter morning or am I doing damage waiting for this thick oil to get up out of the oil pan?

 

YAY another medic! cool....as for my oil? Quaker Sludge 5w 30, as per the owners guide.

 

Medic,

The difference between a 5wt and a 10wt is very small and probably could only be detected by a lab. Even between manufacturers their is a difference between their 5wt and another manufacturers 5wt, so in theory you can have one manufacterers 5wt oil be very close to another manufacturers 10wt oil. To know the exact viscosity of an oil you would have to know its centistokes viscosity at a common temperature. Their is a lot more that goes into manufacturing a motor oil than just viscosity. All companies have tolerances that they adhere to and as long as it fits into the parameters set forth, then they can call it a 5wt.

Will a 5w-30 pump easier at startup than a 10w-30? Probably, but it wouldn't be that significant of difference. We aren't talking about the difference between a light weight oil (such as 5wt or 10wt) and a heavy weight oil (such as 30wt or 40wt). You could definitely visually see the difference between those.

 

...does not always cause one to reassemble them into the right answer, "01 XLT Sport". A five point difference in the viscosity range is not nearly so important as the ability to perform under cold starts. As "medic " has observed qualitatively, there is a vast difference in the flow abilities among oils at cold temperature ranges, much more so than warm ones. Viscosity, like sound (decibels), is measured in non-linear fashion, and the differences as the temperature gauge moves down are stark, indeed.

About your interesting "w" hypothesis, an oil designated as suitable for winter application does not mean that an SAE 10w oil is suitable where an SAE 5w is specified. It just means that the 10w oil will perform like an SAE 10 oil in winter weather (wont gel or seperate at an unacceptable level). If a 5w-xx oil is specified, using a 10w-xx oil is simply not the same when it comes to flow, pumping, and lubrication. I find it hard to believe that polymer breakdown will be a significant factor in a properly cooled engine within a 5000+ mile change interval; this stuff has been tested *extensively*. However, cold starts are something no other system in the motor can help out with, and 5w-30 is better than 10w-30 for cold start wear protection. This is why the VERY SAME webpage to which you refer in your post (in fact, same section) includes the following sentence, which you have curiously omitted:

"Follow your manufacturer's recommendations as to which weights are appropriate for your vehicle."

In light of the 1997 owner's manual, that would mean "5w-30".

Your engine, your choice; no one's stopping you from deciding what to do with your engine. Cold starting accounts for most engine wear in the vast majority of automotive/light truck engines, and that cold starting does not just mean in winter. Why you chose to quote the second paragraph but omit the third is, well, odd.


And, Navi Man, no one here got personal before you did with your name calling, and you have (up until now) stood by your "expert" opinion on recommending 10w-30 oil. A quick read through the thread proves it.

For you to whimper about name calling and getting personal is just rich. You've pulled every trick in the book, from calling me DrDrivel (and worse), to telling me I just don't understand and appreciate your experience having seen engines taken apart, to quoting some phantom "lubrication engineer" who apparently gives advice that is either 1) just plain wrong, or 2) over your head; and all of which was meant to justify yourself and make what I have posted here look "wrong".

The insulting and constant replies are most certainly NOT the actions of someone who simply wants things to "end peacefully", as you put it; they are someone who has an overweaning desire to feel they are right at any cost and attacks anyone else who threatens that position. I have backed up my posts with information that is readily available to you should you choose to read it, and there it will stand. If you REALLY want(ed) it to "end peacefully", try referring to me as I refer to you (by your chosen posting pseudonym) and come after my position on its merits. You'll amaze us all, rather than yourself. The choice is yours.

I (and many others) have already answered the thread's original question, about whether to use 5w-30 versus 5w-20; and FoMoCo's motivation behind doing so. And, using a 10w-30 (an alternative you continue to recommend) is not a better idea for cold start lubrication, and that (most importantly) includes those days when it's 70F outside and sunny....not just winter. Why? an engine's operating temperature range (where the oil is in its "warm" phase, acting as the second SAE number) is far, far warmer than 70F. Again, your engine to mess with as you see fit...have fun, and happy grinding, brother!

 

medic:

First just let me say I am by no means an expert on oil. It seems as though DrDevon has a lot of background on that subject. From my last post I wish I could take credit for the first 2/3 of it but its all information from the web site that I left a link to.

The only part that is from me is everything after "The following is from me:" I know our owner manuals recommend 5W-20, at least for mine which is a 01 4.2. However I have pointed out that on the 3 occasions that I had my oil changed at the dealer they used 5W-30.

I also am not making any specific recommendations on using 10W-30 but rather pointing out that from the information I have read it would seem to be a better oil then 5W-30. As far as your oil pump being able to pump a 10W when its cold I would say my answer would be yes since any oil with a "W" is suitable for winter conditions. IF someone were to tell me no the oil pump can't pump it when its cold then I'll be taken my truck back to FORD and getting my money back. I wouldnt want a pump so cheap it couldn't pump a very thin oil as 10W in winter with temps down to -20 to -30 degrees C.

I will say however that DrDevon makes a point that a 5W "should" cause less wear at start-up compared to a 10W since the 5W it is thinner. My point would be what is actual best for the engine. There will be wear on an engine at every start-up regardless if its 0W, 5W, or 10W so that is a given. What I am not knowledgable about is if the wear at start-up between 5W and 10W is not sufficient enough to tell the difference at 100,000 miles if you were to tear down the motor then should one chance the possibility that it is more likely that viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the higher polymer content in a 5W-30 to a 10W-30 is more possible, and thus could cause more damage to the motor.

If that were to happen would FORD cover the motor if its under warranty since FORD dealers are using 5W-30 for oil changes. FORD is not off the hook, in my opinion, necessarily just because someone were to chose to use 10W-30 rather then 5W-30. FORD wouldnt have much ground to stand on since they dont specifically state in the warranty NOT to use 10W-xx. Let me state this I am not recommending anyone use something other then is "recommended" by the warranty. I am just pointing out what I think and sharing some facts that I got from other web sites.

If someone were to use 10W-xx and blew the motor while under warranty and was really worried about FORD then one could always drain most the oil out and replace it with 5W-20 or 30. The fact is if the motor fails before 36,000 miles, and you were not hotrodding it, then there was already a problem with the motor to begin with from the factory and neither the 5W or 10W would have caused the damage.

That is just a fact of life nobody not even FORD can make 100% of their product to spec's. Even pace makers are not 100% right from the factory or lab. So I figure if I have been taken care of my motor, normal oil changes at 3,000 miles regardless if its 5W or 10W and its under warranty FORD is going to fix it at FORD's cost.

Something to think about...

 

DrDevon:

Please accept my deepest apoligizes for not posting the whole web page. I didnt think it was necessary since for "most" people its a given "Follow your manufacturer's recommendations as to which weights are appropriate for your vehicle." But since we are talking about manufacturer's recommendations that is all they are "recommendations" not "MUST" if it was that important then my dealer would be using 5W-20 for my oil changes rather then 5W-30.

Next, your statement about: "About your interesting "w" hypothesis," its not my hypothesis as I pointed out in my post it is from the web site noted. The fact of the matter is it is true if there is a "W" it is suitable for use in winter, period. for 5W that would be for temps of -25 to -35 degrees C, and for 10W for temps of -20 to -30 degrees C.

If it is 70 degrees F outside then your not going to see nearly as much wear at start-up as you would when the temp is say 10 degrees F regardless if its 5W or 10W. The oil in the pan is much warmer and will flow much better when its 70 degrees outside rather then 10 degrees. That is a fact as well, because the oil is already warmer at the higher temp. Kind of like a putting a glass of water outside in 10 degrees its froze, but at 70 degrees it will flow nicely.

I will still stand behind the fact that if I take care of my motor, reg. oil changes etc, and it fails before 36,000 miles regardless if I were to use 10W (I, well my dealer uses 5W-30) or 5W then there was already a problem with the motor from the factory, its just a fact of life nothing is perfect, but FORD is best. If I have problem with my motor while under warranty then FORD had better fix it, since it was there screw up to begin with.

Again, I am no oil expert by any means, but I am interested in using what is best for my truck. That may be 5W or could be 10W. I am just pointing out interesting facts about the subject for others to comment about. This is a forum and I figured it was a good place to do it.

The one thing I did point out that I know is a fact first hand is that FORD does not seem to concerned about what they "recommend" in their warranties. Mine "recommends" 5W-20 but my FORD dealer uses 5W-30. If FORD were, in my opinion, truly concerned about what they "recommend" then they should have thier dealers following thier "recommendations" a little better, dont you agree.

 

Everybody has some interesting points and we should all follow what we feel is best.

 

Doc,

Have you ever been in politics? You would be great at it.

What is your opinion on using the recommended 5w-20 oil in some of the 2001 and newer engines? The Ford engineers recommend this oil and according to you everybody should follow the oil recommended by the manufacturer. Will using a 5w-20 perform as well as a 5w-30? And if not, why would these engineers recommend this oil? I hope you don't use the CAFE scenario, as how could the Ford engineers sacrifice the life our engines for the sake of a miniscule mpg gain.

 

...01 XLT Sport, I am not looking for an apology, and, as for the 5w-20 vs. 5w-30 situation, you have found the same answer everyone else has at your dealer. Recommending a 20 weight at operating temperature is a game for CAFE easing. It's not a good move. This has been observed by numerous people here.

Ford will NOT do warranty work on engine failures related to using 10w-xx oil. This obviates the rest of the discussion. Your recommendation that 10w-30 "would be what is actual best for the engine", and continuing to relate this to the "w" (as you do in the follow-up) is false. Again, "w" does not mean that the oil in question is suitable for the engine in question, it only means that the oil will not gel and seperate. You should use a 5w-XX oil for cold start wear, winter and summer. The polymers DO NOT BREAK DOWN under use in automotive engines with reasonably maintained cooling systems.

The cold start properties ARE significant; since the polymer breakdown does not occur much under automotive service (not near enough to be a problem), it is NOT significant. Again, parsing the facts to fit your view does not strengthen your view. We are talking about cold start protection, and a "w" rating does nothing but tell you an oil will not degrade FROM ITS ORIGINAL SPEC. It does not say it will perform as well as another spec at the same temperature; that would imply it is OUT OF SPEC.

A 10w-xx will not lubricate in cooler temperatures as well as a 5w-XX in ambient conditions (which are significant until the engine reaches dewsign service temperature, and the temp gauge indicates as much). The "w" only means that they will each meet their own particular spec in the colder temperature range, not that they are both suitable for the Ford modular 4.6L V8 in the cooler temperature range. Relying on how an engine looks after it has been torn down is too late (and anecdotal) for the rest of us; funny how that is exactly the same line of reasoning employed by "Navi Man".

"Navi Man", your questions have been repeatedly answered. I will take your latest remark about politics as a compliment. Your refusal to apologize for personal insults, and refusal to admit posting (demonstrable) garbage and standing on it will identify you throughout your life. Best wishes.

 

Hey Doc,

Please show me where I said 10w-30 was a better oil than 5w-30?

As for insults, the only thing I ever said to you was calling you Dr. Drivel and you fire back at me calling me an idiot and a whacko and posting "garbage". Not on one occassion but on several.

To recap your point of view, you state that we should all adhere to Fords recommendation on oil viscosity for our vehicles. After all the Ford engineers are looking out for ours and Fords best interest when they make a recommendation. Then you state that 5w-20 is a mistake on their part, which is also recommended by the Ford engineers. You're talking out both sides Doc. These same Ford people along with their engineers also recommended Firestone tires for the Ford Explorer. Your contention is that 5w is better at startup than a 10w. In theory the lighter weight oil will pump better and will, but the reality is the difference between one manufacturers 5w could be very close to another manufacturers 10w. The two oils are both very light. It's not like we are talking about a 10 weight and a 30 weight oil. Oil manufacturers have tolerances that they go by to determine a viscosity of an oil. As long as an oil fits into the tolerance they spec out, then they can call it a 5w or whatever category it falls into. If you look at a kinematic viscosity of an oil, then you will have a much truer picture of the actual viscosity of that brand of oil. Will their be detectable wear on an engine using 10w instead of the 5w? I've never seen any documented proof. It would be great if we could put two identical engines under laboratory conditions and test this theory out, but it's not realistic.

You don't like my contention that a 10w-30 will work fine in a late model Ford engine, which is fine, but I have spoken to several other people that I respect and have a lot of years experience that have told me the same thing. People can choose what information they want to. It's called freedom of choice. Trust me their are much worse things that people have done to their vehicles than what I have said.

I will apologize for calling you Dr. Drivel. Hopefully that will make you feel better. It was never meant to be taken that seriously and I only was looking for a laugh. Obviously it hurt your feelings and got under your skin. I'm a big boy and can handle anything thrown my way, so it won't be necessary for you to apologize for some of your comments.

I hope everyone has a Happy Easter.

 

DrDevon:

First let me state once again, most likely wont be the last time. I am by NO means an oil expert. I think I have made that clear to all who may read these post. I myself do NOT recommend to any other person on this post to do anything other then what their warranty calls for since I am NOT an expert.

However I will point out that I am educated enough to read many different interesting facts and to a good degree can understand what they are telling me. so we shall begin:

First in your last post you state that I recommend using 10W-30 like Navi Man. I like Navi Man have not recommended or told anyone to use 10W-30, case closed. Please let's move on.

To your reference to my recommending 10W-30 here is what I stated in my post:

"I would have to make an educated guess that it would be
better to use a 10W-30 rather then a 5W-30."

This educated guess was based on the fact the 5W-30 compared to 10W-30 is more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to higher polymer content in the 5W-30.

To the statement you made about *extensively* testing oils for viscosity and thermal breakdown I do agree with you it has been *extensively* studied by the experts and the experts found that the more polymer content an oil has the greater the risk of break down. That's what studies are all about finding out facts and the is a FACT. Not my fact mind you, but the experts.

I also would respectfully disagree with you about FORD will NOT cover warranty repairs due to use of 10W-30. Again I am not recommending any one use 10W-30 but to argue the point In my opinion FORD would HAVE to cover warranty repairs is someone were to use 10W-30. What do I base my point on, simple, because FORD themselfs through their dealers DONT follow their own recommendations on oil use of 5W-20. My dealer as many other dealers are using 5W-30. While FORD allows that to happen FORD is sending "mixed" signals to its customers, they recommend one thing and use another. In doing that FORD has opened itself to, in my opinion, a very very weak defence for refusing to do warranty repairs for using 10W-30.

It could also be argued that since 5W-30 has a higher chance of breakdown compared to 10W-30 (thats from the experts and their *exttensive* testing, not me) the consumer, you and I, acted within "good faith" to maintain our motors from premature failure.

Now, could you or I or anyone of us by ourselfs make FORD repair our motors if we were to use 10W. The answer in my opinion would be "not likely" unless you have a huge amount of cash. But, in a classaction suit, you bet, as I stated FORD sends "mixed" messages and, once again in my opinion, would lose.

Now for your comment about "my" W. I only transfered the information from a web site to this forum its not my "W" facts. However you are incorrect to say that the "W" only tells you that the oil will not degrade. It dont tell you that at all. What it does tell you, once again, is it is suitable for winter. Now that may include it will not break down, but thats not all it tells you. it further tells you for 5W the oil is fine for temps of -25 to -35 degrees C, and for 10W temps of -20 to -30 degrees C

Moving right along, as to your comment:

"Relying on how an engine looks after it has been torn down is
too late (and anecdotal) for the rest of us; funny how that is
exactly the same line of reasoning employed by "Navi Man"."

I wasnt relying on how my or your engine would look. Please read my post again I dont want to have to paste it here. I brought it up for dicussion, which are what forums are for, at least in my opinion, basically this:

If the wear of a motor at 100,000 miles showed more sufficient wear from using 10W compared to 5W. Some of the questions I had were:

1. Is there much difference in wear at 100,000 miles between
5W and 10W?

2. If not, then should one use 10W?

3. If one used 5W-30 and had a motor failure would FORD
cover the repairs? since 5W-30 as well as 10W-30 are not
recommended by FORD.

Look, your not an expert, I am not an expert, and Navi Man is not an expert but we as well as others can all bring good aguements to this forum to dicuss. When it gets down to it, it seems to me NO ONE really knows what is the best, not even FORD since they dont follow through with their own recommendations on oil use. I do enjoy good arguements on points of interest, I do enjoy and welcome anyone who wishes to disagree with me thats what a forum is all about. I would however respectfull ask that you please dont misquote myself or Navi Man or anyone else in the forum.

The one thing that I will continue to stand by is the FACT that if my motor fails before 36,000 miles regardless if I use 5W or 10W then the motor was defective from the factory. If the motor is made to proper specifications and I maintain my motor with proper oil changes, 3,000 miles , dont overheat it ect then if I were to use 10W the motor will NOT fail. If it were to fail then it is a very poorly designed motor.

 

Thanks 01 XLT Sport. I appreciate the support. We can all learn from this that their is no perfect solution and people will have varying opinions on what is best.