As long as Dr Drivel quits with the attitude. We don't need his kind of attitude in this forum. If people want to disagree, then that's great. That's what forums are for, open discussion, but this forum doesn't need somebody coming on here and slamming on people. Ok, I've made my peace.

 

Don't you just love those guys who are so quick to throw their degree's in your face. That really makes me respect them and what they say all the more. Obviously trying to compensate for something elsee.

 

....well, couldn't some of us use one.

Look, Navi Man, quit handing out poor advice, especially if you don't understand the fundamentals and can't explain why one should or should not follow it. Relying on someone to show up on your front doorstep and "show" you "an engine" is plain shabby.

And yes, "Irutt", when all you can do is present yourself online there is no shame to describing your qualifications to speak on a matter truthfully and accurately. Rather than spewing poor advice and backing it up with vacant quesitons and "years of experience" (as my detractors do here), I offer legitimate fundamental explanation of my statements to support following the oil weight recommendations in one's owner's manual rather than the red herrings offered by fellow board members. If mentioning an education in the subject material offends you but spurious advice does not, perhaps your problems run deeper than anything which can be fixed here.

As for the detractors, they offer my fellow board members misleading advice and call me names for rejecting their point of view on the facts. Their sensitivity (in light of their poor taste in not justifying trashing the owner's manual recommendation) brings their motives and knowledge into question.

For documentation, you can find my dissertation in the Texas A&M library (1998, Devon Williams). It's the real thing. Perhaps some of these oversensitive snake-oil pushers who spout their so-called "expertise" could do us all a service and stick to the facts. If they did , they wouldn't be sooooo concerned with their own egos and more concerned with what they represent to the public.

Finally, do you *really* think I am here so occaisionally (I've been a member of the original listserv mailing list in 1996 and had other login names here) for some kind of stroke? No one is going to pay me any consulting fee for being here, and I have yet to meet anyone from this list outside the 'Net, unfortunately, so the answer is "no". I simply want everyone to be careful with their investment, and in particular, with the oil they put in it. Whackos telling them to put 10w-30 for (sic) better protection should be called out for what they are....and doing so does not make me the one with the bad attitude or the personal problems. Quite the opposite is more likely.

 

OK, just a quick experience fo my own in regards the oil weights.

The company I work for was just recently refused warrenty work on a engine by a Ford dealer because we weren't using 5w-30 in a 2001 4.2l V-6. Would they have been able to tell the difference if the mechanic had told them he had been using 5w-30? If they wanted to send an oil sample in for analysis.

This is just an FYI post. I personally use 5w-30 because the manual tells me to and consumer reports says it won't matter if I use 10w-30 or 5w-30, synthetic or not, duralube, slick-50, or no addative. The engine wear will be the same...excluding cold starts.

 

DrDrivel,

You da man!

I've built engines, I've torn engines apart and I have seen them use every kind of oil. Other than for warranty purposes I will stand behind my contention that an engine will be just fine with 10w -30 as opposed to 5w-30. The only time you could have a problem is in extreme cold climates where you might actually be below Zero and the 5w-30 will help during the cold startup, but if you think about it, this is only about 10% of the driving time at most and only in a small part of the country.

Doc, If you quit with "I am greater than everyone" attitude, you might actually have some people listening to you, but you come on here and calling people names and saying we are wahkos, you lose the respect you so dearly think you deserve. I'm sure you have a tremendous knowledge of viscosities, but experience with engines also goes a long way. Next time you might want to consider your approach.

 

...Navi Man, if you were financially liable for everyone's Ford warranty, your "standing behind" your argument would make sense. If you could explain to me why, fundamentally, for the Ford Modular 4.6L V8 engine, operating in the U.S. and Canada, 10w-30 is an absolutely equal or better choice for regular engine lubrication ('cause it sure isn't cheaper where I buy MY oil)?

However, no matter how many engines you have seen torn up, opened up, or glistening in the sun behind a parts shack, you have seen but a tiny fraction of all the engines on which people have data....which they use to write specifications....which they write in an owner's manual. The Ford modular V8 has never, to my knowledge, been marketed with a recommendation to use SAE 10w-30 engine oil for lubrication. If you can find such a situation, please point it out. The only designed operational difference between an SAE 10w-30 and SAE 5w-30 is the behavior at temperatures beneath the operating range, which is in the vicinity of 185-200F, correct? This is where "medic" is exactly right, that any SAE xx-30 oil should provide suitable (equal) wear protection under "warm" (design) temperature operation; this is no accident. How could someone with all this mind-blowing experience with engines not understand that so much wear occurs at cold start, and the steps engineers take to reduce said wear?

Additionally, your statement about extreme cold temperatures affecting cold-start flow and lubrication is *exactly* the sort of misstatement which worries someone who designs and warrants engines, like Ford Motor Co. Do you know the difference between flow characteristics of an SAE 5w and SAE 10w at 30F, which is not "extreme cold" known only by remote parts of the US and Canada? And, to answer the personal part of your post, does my pointing this out represent an attitude problem, or does you prior jab on this subject? How about the name calling; have I ever referred to you as anything but Navi Man? Your embarrassment is showing.

I ask for proof, serious proof, and get jabs. The decision is yours.

 

buddy lighten up....this is just a web forum.

You have some good info, but man are you rude...

noone will listen to your insight when it is wrapped in a sour package...that's just the way of the world.

There are American dying in the war on terrorism, there are folks suffering in the world, use whatever oil that helps you sleep through the night...shheeesh!!!!

--and since we are referencing our curriculum vitae's:

/18 year Air Force Officer/Aerospace Physiologist/holder of FIVE College Degrees, none of them in viscosity studies...

 

Well Doc, I guess I misunderstood you. I didn't realize that you were complementing me when you called me a whacko. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

One thing I would like to clear up that you accused me of, is that I never advised anyone to go against the manufacturers recommendation for warranty purposes. The only thing I might have mentioned is that many of the Ford dealers were not voiding warranties for using 5w-30 instead of the required 5w-20 for some of the newer vehicles. This came from the dealer, not me. Other posters have also mentioned this with there local dealer, in fact one person mentioned that they had a service done at a dealership and they used 5w-30 on a vehicle still under warranty that required 5w-20.

Try taking a lighter approach and people might actually respect your opinion. By some of the responses on here, I'm not the only one that felt you were coming across with an attitude.

 

...I appreciate all your concern about my tact.

Frankly, I rarely experience complaints, but also rarely find topics so many people are so willing to out-and-out lie about. Just not my style.

2002 gray ghost, you are an interesting case if you have to post your own resume to tell me about politeness. That's not a sour delivery; it's a factual delivery of (an unfortunate) sour message in response to the sour message you sent.

Yes, I respect your experience and appreicate your service to our country. However, you can save the scolding for your kids, and that was scolding, not just advice. Singling me out is your choice, enjoy it. My major professor (for whom I primarily worked when I was in grad school) is an Air Force veteran (Academy, too), and doesn't brook the whining these nuts make when they get called out on strikes. It's a no-brainer one doesn't wear the same face at the office as one does to those who prefer to call names like "DrDrivel" or "DrDevil" (gee, thanks, DAD!).

Again, you refer to me as rude, but then employ similar tactics by posting your "aerospace physiology" credentials, experience as an officer, and FIVE college degrees, don't you? C'mon, you really couldn't resist slingin' some mud, could ya? Nice to know the kettle's black. Well, I won't tell you what the ideal resting heart range and blood pressure is for an astronaut or fighter pilot. Best of luck.

In fact, save it for Navi Man, who continues to insist on something opposite the truth....and Navi Man, get over it; calling me names won't change the obvious. You're embarrassed, and your persistent rudeness only verifies it. You are recommending something that is pretty stupid for a whole lot of people reading this board; anyone with a 4.6L or 5.4L Ford V8, and more than likely, anyone with a 4.2L V6.

Warranty purposes or not, 10w-xx oil is not a good idea for the 4.6L V8, or the 5.4L either. By some strange coincidence, Ford is legally protected against claims using a 10w-xx motor oil, but not a different air filter. I can't spell it out for you any more plainly.

 

Me posting my credentials was nothing more that me poking a little fun at you...most folks on this board are well educated, either through schools of higher learning or through rigorous experience...

Doc, your hot button is SO EASY to push...someone rights a couple lines and you fire back with a monologue

I appreciate the entertainment after a long day of pulling Gz in a jet aircraft....Have a nice day!

 

NAVI MAN:

Yes, I am the person you referred to about the dealer using 5w-30 instead of 5w-20. I have 3 service orders that state on them that they used 5w-30. The fact is the warranty states “Recommend” as far as 5w-20. Thus if I were to have a problem with the motor while still under warranty FORD WOULD have to repair it regardless of what oil was used be it 5w-20 or 5w-30.

DrDevon:

I would respectfully disagree with your statement "Ford is legally protected against claims using a 10w-xx motor oil" I would highly suggest that FORD is NOT legally protected against claims. If FORD wanted to be legally protected I would argue that they would have to re-write their warranty and replace "recommend" with "must" or "shall" use 5w-20 or what ever. The fact that FORD uses the verb "recommend" leaves open the possiblity that other oils may be used, be it 5w-30, 10w-30 etc. I would further argue that in order for FORD to be protected against claims against someone using say 10w-30 they would have to state in their warranty that "you can not, or shall not use 10w-30, or what ever oil". If you read the warranty and I am sure you have you will have noticed that FORD does make statements, I believe to the effect about not using engine oil additives, gas additives etc. So if one were found to be using an engine oil additive and FORD found out they could refuse to repair a motor under warranty.

The other way FORD could legally protect itself against law suits for warranty repair if someone used say 10w-30 is for FORD to have a list of a or all "approved" motor oils that can be used in specifc motors in their warranty. Otherwise I would have to say FORD is far from protected especially against someone using 10w-30. Now I myself use 5w because I am hoping what FORD is saying is correct in that it will protect against wear at start-up. I know you say that 5w is better then 10w for wear at start-up which would also suggest the 0w is better then 5w. I do ask myself "when is thin to thin or light to light before it actuallys causes more wear at start-up. I mean there must be a point where an oil is so thin or light that it will actually cause more damage at start-up because it just dosnt provide enough protection.

Anyway something for a discussion

 

Here are some exerpts I found doing some research on the matter. The person writing this is a lubricating oil engineer with 18 years in the business.

"Question: What are the negative aspects of using a 5W-20 motor oil?

Answer: There are many negative aspects, the most important is that 5W-20 has less film and shear strength than a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 motor oil. This can lead to increased and accelerated engine wear under today's demanding heat and high stress engine operating conditions. In our analysis, there is a limit to how light of a viscosity an engine oil can go, as a light viscosity oil such as 5W-20 offers less protection for your engine. What's going to be next 5W-10? If you operate under severe service conditions such as towing trailers, hauling heavy loads, stop and go driving in hot weather or sustained high speeds on the highway then you are even in a worse predicament. You would be much better off using either a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 motor oil.



Question: Could using a 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30 or even a 10W-40 or 20W-50, oil in my vehicle which specifies a 5W-20 oil void my new car warranty?

Answer: ABSOLUTELY NOT! Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30, 10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge. If your dealership continues to tell you that you must use 5W-20 motor oil and or/ a specific brand of 5W-20 motor oil, then ask them to put it in writing. Their position is inaccurate, and, in fact violates existing law.*

Additionally, if there is ever a question of whether or not a particular motor oil was the cause of an engine failure make sure to get a sample of the used oil in a clean bottle, typically 6 oz. minimum. The oil can then be sent to two independent testing labs for analysis. This is standard procedure for most commercial vehicles, trucking, construction/excavation and fleet companies and there are numerous certified test labs all over the country. Remember, a knowledgeable and informed consumer is your best defense against being taken advantage of by a car dealership service center."

I do have one question for you Doc. Seeing as how you seem to think that the Ford engineers are looking out for the consumers best interest when they list the recommended oil in the car owners manual, then what is your opinion on 5w-20?

 

So, what's everyone think of 0W-30 then? Best of both worlds?



snoopy the tribologist

 

*THE END*

 

NAVI MAN:

Outstanding post, excellent research and right to the point. Thank you for answering my question on "when is thin to thin, or light to light" I guess the dealership I go to has some brains for using 5w-30 instead of 5w-20. You are also correct as long as there is oil in the engine and changed as recommended or sooner basis then FORD MUST cover warranty repairs to their motors.