Ok, personal opinions aside, let's look at sales figures so far this year to see how much the gap is narrowing. Here are some sales figures for January of 2003 (Dodge and Chevrolet are BOTH sporting redesigns, but still the same old Ford). Chevrolet sales are down 29.5%, and they moved 36,088 trucks. 29.5% is one heck of a drop in sales, and you would think that if Dodge is really competitive at all, when one of their main competitors drops over a quarter of their sales and Dodge Ram sales are up 3%, they would take over the number 2 spot. WRONG! Dodge has moved 26,752 trucks. Chevrolet dropped embarassingly, and they still outsold Dodge by 9,336 trucks. Now with Ford sales UP 2.2%, Dodge is gaining on them by .8% each month (based on the current sales trend). This means that yes, Dodge is gaining on Ford sales, but keep in mind that Dodge has a brand-spanking-new redesign, and this is the same Ford that has been here for years. Ford moved 56,569 trucks. This is 2.1 times as many trucks as Dodge has sold. That's right, over TWICE as many trucks sold. If Dodge gains .8% each month, they will eventually catch Ford, but how many years will that take? Wait until the new Fords are released, and watch the sales jump that the blue oval gets. Being realistic (and not counting the fact that the F-series has an unheard of record of being the best-selling truck in the US for 27 STRAIGHT years), it loks like Ford will rule the roost for quite some time. I wonder what the Dodge hp ratings are to the rear wheels. I bet that is hard information to find out from Dodge, because their selling point is "Look, we redesigned, and our engines are stronger!" Maybe so, but what are the statistics? Where can I find some results showing that the new Dodge has outperformed Ford? I don't want ratings, I want to see test results Ford vs. Dodge. I don't think Dodge would release that, either, and if I were struggling with sales (not even in the top three in full-size truck sales last year), I would not release that informaton, either. With the new SRT and the new Lightning having the same hp/torque numbers, the drivetrain and weight will be the deciding factors on which truck will perform better. How big is the Viper engine, and how much more does it weigh than the 5.4? Considerably more, and that is why it won't be real competition for the Lightning. Looks like Ford will be ruling the roost for quite some time. Funny how people can say that the Dodge is better, when clearly the consumer says otherwise. There is a reason that Ford is the leader in sales (and will continue to be), and that reason is that Ford makes better trucks than anyone, period. If they don't, then try to outsell them. You will find out (just like Chevrolet, Toyota, and yes, even Dodge) that you can't beat the Ford Motor Company (in truck sales). Please, when Dodge sells at least 50% as many trucks, then we can have a serious argument over which is better. Maybe if Dodge did something other than round their truck up a bit and actually made them TRUCKS instead of want-to-be-trucks, then they would not have to resort to pushing the name of their new engine to sell, they could let their trucks do the selling for them. I understand that the only thing that has worked for Dodge in the history of the company has been the Hemi, but it is old news. Sorry, people, but you can't argue with numbers. By the way, how many people buy their trucks based on 0-60 performance times, anyway? If you want a fast truck, buy a Lightning. Guaranteed, there is not a faster production truck, and there probably won't be. Genreally, people who want trucks don't make 0-60 times a deciding factor in the truck that they choose. We use trucks as trucks, not as sports cars, but if you want a sport truck, then compare the sport trucks. Ford is a leader in that catergory, too.

 

The Dodge engines are NOT Hemis despite what their marketing departments says. The design is NOT a hemisphereical design, the engineers will admit it but the marketing guys would rather deceive I guess..

The joke going around is that they are semi-hemis,....at best.

I heard the semi-hemi requires 89 octane to get the HP numbers, is that true?

 

A guy I work with got a new dodge ram 1500 4 door with the 5.7L hemi, 4WD and oem 20's.

He was ranting on and on about how powerful the motor is. I took it for a ride and yes, it is at least TWICE as powerful as the 5.2L that was in the '99 ram he replaced. I was impressed.

His rant turned into a challange, I was up for the game and simply walked him by 4 truck lengths in 'Betty' (my stock 99 Expy)devil:

Dah, dah, dahdahDAHdah! ram tough?:o

 

I'm going to post here one more time and then move on. I think that Dodge, rather than zeroing in (supposedly) on Ford, better start looking over it's shoulder instead. The Nissan Titan and the soon to be released crew cab Toyota Tundra are both going to make this half ton category much more competitive. My original comments still bear out, both Nissan and Toyota are getting better and better at determining what the end consumer wants and building that vehicle at the right time. Dodge still has no concept how to do this with their trucks. Their current offering(s) are a perfect example of this fact (check their current sales volumes). Ford seems to be the 'best' at this point in time at doing this very thing. The delivery of the SuperCrew, and it's verifiable sales volume since introduction in 2001 bear out this statement. The Explorer is also a good example of Ford's ability to market the right vehicle at the right time, and adapt it appropriately throughout it lifecycle.

As for my comments supposedly bashing the new 'HEMI' Dodge and others assertions that I should not render such opinions, I offer this rebuttal. This is a 'forum' through which everyone has the opportunity to render whatever opinions (positive or negative) that they want. You say the new HEMI feels like it has even more HP than noted on the window sticker and I say it felt like a big slow behemoth when I test drove it. You feel the interior of the Ford looks cheap and I feel the same way about the Dodge. These are all 'opinions' for which we are all entitled. I do not remember reading a single post in this section that described the HEMI Dodge as a POS. I didn't call it that either.

So, at the risk of further offending a couple posters here I recommend that you buck-up, and let the dialog flow. If you find the dialog becoming too offensive for your delicate nature, find another topic to post in.

 

Pickupman! I second that!
Look at the statistics! They are disassociated truth.

 

I also agree....
This forum allows a natural speaking platform for anyone and everyone!
Regardless of the opinions re Dodge Ford it is quite apparent that as of today Ford captures the market in light trucks.
Usually, the other car makers seem to design vehicles to meet a certain need.
But I find that Ford almost creates their own market. The
Explorer is a good example of that. In my opinion, Ford trully created the market for suv's.
I know there were Suburbans, Jeeps, and other sort'a suv's out there, but Ford made everyone want one with the Explorer, Expedition, and so on. While all the other suv's had the lower luxury ride feature, Ford went high with an off road type look and built them tough. It worked, it still blows me away when I see how many of these vehicles Ford sold with very little design change over the years. Same with their trucks, their design, power train, and overall look has little changes and yet they lead the market place.
Also just a little note for everyone..........and this is fact
Ford is not concerned with GM Dodge, or anyone else except one

Toyota...the Tundra is making them nervous!

 

Just to post a "fact" versus an opinion...I beat my next door neighbor's Toyota Tundra with the 4.7 V8. It was an even match from the start, but I guess the mods. to my truck payed off!

 

You test drove a 4x4 and your 2001 4x2 felt slower, but with a few mods would be close or better. 4x4 = more weight, about 300 pounds, and more driveline losses. If the Hemi 4x4 felt as quick or quicker than your 2wd, then I think it is impressive. That is all.

I just priced out a Ford Supercab XLT 4x4 on Fordvehicles.com with comparable options to a Dodge Quad Cab SLT 4x4 at Dodge.com. Sticker prices: $33,220 vs. $33,230. Now it is hard to get comparable options, but I tried as best I could with the biggest engines, Off Road packages, trailer towing, and I made sure to add the 4-wheel disk brakes and upgraded tires on the RAM to match the FX4. Anyway, the prices are very similar, not $2000 off.

I don't think you were suposedly bashing any products, but not exactly comparing apples to apples or comparing anything but paper specs before your test drive.

My evidence of 5-speed auto transmission reliability mated to the Hemi comes from transmission dyno durability testing at DC. I know a few people over there. The old automatics sucked big time and even insiders knew it. The new ones are doing much better. The trans itself has been around since 1999 with the 4.7L in the Grand Cherokee. Obviously less power, but the design is solid if it can handle the exttra power. The old trans couldn't handle the 5.2, or even the 3.9L V6. It just sucked.

Anyway, I wasn't comparing the whole packages, or quality of materials. This thread was 5.4L vs. 5.7L and the 5.7L is just better than what Ford has now for engine options in a LD pickup. I'll quote myself:
ozcar2 ,

Yes, Hemi require 89 octane. And it is not a true Hemi head. Most of today's engines have a semi hemi type of head design. Dodge just gets to use the name.

 

Isn't using 89 octane a bit weird?

Why can't the Dodge's use 87 octane like the 5.4L? Especially the way gas prices are nowadays, whoi wants to pay an extra $2-$3 each fillup!

 

Folks, let me say this...coming from a car salesman:

I got to drive the 6.0L diesel in a Ford "Ride and Drive" against the Chevy Duramx and against the Dodge Cummins. We kicked their butts without a problem. Now I am not talking about just road driving. I am talking about DRAG RACING! Yes, we did actual drag racing...here were the scenarios:

03 F-250 K/R 6.0L Auto Crew Cab 4x4
vs.
03 Dodge 2500 Cummins, Auto 4x4

Here is the kicker: 2000LB water tank in the bed...yeah, drag racing. We beat them off the line, down the strip, and stopping. This is salesperson vs. salesperson

03 F-350 Dually 6.0L Crew 4x2
vs.
03 Chevy 3500 Duramax Crew 4x2

Here is the kciker: 6000LB water trailer behind the trucks...we still out performed them AGAIN!

Here is the bottom line:
Ok, Dodge resurected the Hemi, thats great....but, is it useful for the average guy? NO! Do Dodge trucks hold value very well? NO Have you taken a look at the whole Mopar line...from Jeep to Chrysler to Dodge, the interiors follow the same format basically, even down to the stereos. In my car business experience, the Dodge market is pretty bad.

Lets all sit back, quit our bickering and watch this fizzle out, because boys, when the '04 F-150 hits the street, people will be fighting to get them. How can I say this...well, here iis the deal. I was at 1 of only 3 media unveilings in the US to launch the new F-150. You know the red regular cab that Ford has been showing off??? I sat in it on the grass at the Dallas Cowboy stadium in Irving Texas, right after Mr. Jerry Jones drove it on the field. This thing is fantastic beyond belief. For those who have not seen it...trust be, we will be kicking @$$ and be doing it so fast, we wont have time to take names!

Enough, the soapbox is away, and my fingers are tired!

 

Zeroxman1,

Every test comparing the new Powerstroke to the other diesels has shown the Ford to be a clear winner. I think Dodge made a big mistake with their Cummins engines, mating the high output only to a manual trans, but 90% of diesel sales are automatics which get 100ft-lb less than the competition. But what does that have to do with 5.4L vs. 5.7 gas engines in light duty pickups?

By what foundation can you say the Hemi is not usable to the average consumer? You sat in a 2004 F-150 and now you think it has the power to compete? Let us know when you can drive one. I heard all the new F-150's making the show circuit have the current 2V 5.4L engines. I am sure the 3V 5.4L will be great in the 2004 F-150 as it has been getting great reviews in the Australian market Falcon sedan.

I agree, let this hit the market because none of us know anything about the 3V 5.4L.

I'll try to find out why Dodge decided to go with 89 octane for the Hemi.

 

As for the hemi requiring 89 oct that's not something I'd sign up for. I have an engine where you can still advance the timing and I've got it set as hot as it will go on 87 oct. At 13-15 mpg I can't afford higher oct gas. I bet the hemi has either more compression or they've tuned the computer for 89 oct to try to boost a few extra ponies out of it. I'm sure someone will figure out why and post here. I'd be interested in knowing this.

One thing I've seen that I like about the new 5.4 is that they have beefed up the block for heavy use. I read an interview with a ford engineer, I think it was on blueovalnews, and he kind of worried me about the use of the modular engines in the trucks. He stated that they weren't really designed for the truck line and that he felt like the 5.0/5.8 engines were never really tweaked for 30 years and had potential for continued truck use. Everyone knows they don't breathe well. Bolt some heads on them and they really wake up. My brother has an 02 w/5.4 and it is a great truck. In a few years I'd like to get the 3V version. A reg cab, short bed would really HAUL!

 

Let me add my opinion here.
I've test driven the Ram 1500 and 2500 AND 3500 with the Hemi. The 2500 and 3500 are flat out dogs with the Hemi. All 3 were 4x4s.
The 1500 has real *****.

Obviously I haven't test driven the 300 hp 5.4L, but I expect it to be a real contender. Why? Torque. The 5.4 will on;y be about 10 ft-lb behind the Hemi. But then there's the thing that has always made Fords better than GM or Mopar in my mind: Ford puts the torque (and HP) peak much lower on the power curve than the others. This translates to more off-the-line zip and hauling pwoer. To me, the Hemi with its HP and high-end torque will make one hell of a car engine, but I think the torque is too high on the power curve for a truck engine.

Magnum

 

To me, the Hemi with its HP and high-end torque will make one hell of a car engine, but I think the torque is too high on the power curve for a truck engine.

I agree, I think it would be a great car motor but I'm not quite sure about its truck application yet. Besides, I feel bad for the reg cab 1500 Hemi Ram that pulls up to a 340hp Harley edition F-150 and figures since he has 5 more ponies he can take him. The Harley would just tear him up in my opinion.

 

Most definitely he could take the Dodge, the Harley Edition F-150 loses quite a bit less power in the drivetrain than the Dodge. Rear wheel horsepower, the Ford would smoke him all to pieces, the whole time looking better.