Are you going to "Mod" your Ecoboost?
#1
03-07-2011, 12:57 PM
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Are you going to "Mod" your Ecoboost?
If so, you might want to read the following information.
I found this on another forum, and thought it would be a good idea to spread it around as much as possible....I didn't do the research, just copy/pasted it...but it makes a lot of sense. (Thanks to JohnDeereFarmer for doing the research!)
I think the big message here is that if you're planning ANY mods to an F150 with the EB, you're going to have to choose between the warranty and the mods...or at the very least, be wise enough to ask your dealership BEFORE you do something you'll regret.
I found this on another forum, and thought it would be a good idea to spread it around as much as possible....I didn't do the research, just copy/pasted it...but it makes a lot of sense. (Thanks to JohnDeereFarmer for doing the research!)
I think the big message here is that if you're planning ANY mods to an F150 with the EB, you're going to have to choose between the warranty and the mods...or at the very least, be wise enough to ask your dealership BEFORE you do something you'll regret.
I have been doing some research on putting a tuner on the ecoboost. Seems that since the 6.0 mess Ford has gotten smarter. Also seems that some have blown the eco in the Taurus SHO's. You can make up your own mind.
I found this on FTE in a closed thread about "can tuners be detected" "And is also why ALL of the new Ford turbocharged vehicle PCM's are now encrypted by Bosch"
From yellow bullet, a racing forum:
To: All Ford and Lincoln Mercury Dealerships
Subject: Aftermarket Modifications Warranty Cancellation
BACKGROUND
Aftermarket companies (referred to as "tuners") attempt to increase an engine's torque and power output beyond the design limits which may cause powertrain failures. This is often accomplished by modifying the engine calibration (referred to as "chipping") but may also include modifications or adjustments to other components. Per the Warranty Guide that is provided to the customer and the Warranty & Policy Manual, failures resulting from modifications are not warranted by Ford Motor Company.
All powertrains are subject to warranty cancellation if a modification causes a failure. For the 3.5L EcoBoost technical service bulletin TSB 10-2-6 was published to enable your technicians to determine:
If a powertrain failure resulted from an unauthorized modification
If the engine, transmission, or entire powertrain warranty should be cancelled
Per the inspection process included in this TSB a Ford Motor Company inspector may assist with this analysis. When the inspection process clearly indicates that a failure was caused by an unauthorized modification/alteration the repair should not be completed under Warranty and, using the following process, the vehicle's remaining Engine, Transmission, or Powertrain warranty should be cancelled.
WARRANTY CANCELLATION PROCESS
To initiate a warranty cancellation on an affected vehicle, submit a warranty cancellation request form through FMCDealer.com. This on-line form can be accessed as follows:
FMCDealer.com
Select Parts & Service tab
Select Warranty Administration & Parts Return
Select Warranty Cancellation / Reinstatement Request Form
Complete and submit this form on-line.
Once the warranty is cancelled an OASIS message will advise all dealerships that the vehicle is no longer eligible for warranty coverage
Here is the TSB
Review Service Procedure
SERVICE PROCEDURE
Unauthorized calibration modifications may or may not be detectable using standard tools (Integrated Diagnostic System (IDS), Portable Diagnostic Software (PDS), NGS+ VCM). Changes can be made to the calibration and flashed to the PCM through the OBD port. Physical modifications to the hardware may or may not be present. If aftermarket power/torque-increasing modifications are suspected, care should be taken to record and store the following items: Permanent Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs), Pending DTCs, Freeze Frame Data, Mode 6 and Mode 9 data. The data should be printed and attached to the repair order for later reference.
The DTCs, freeze frame data, Mode 6 and 9 data can be obtained by using the IDS, PDS or NGS+VCM under tool box selection. The Powertrain tab will provide the OBD Test Modes tab and Mode 6 and 9 data selection after the vehicle has been identified.
Attempting to increase the engine output via recalibrating the PCM may result in poor drivability, DTCs, or component failures. A partial list of calibration induced component failures is given below:
* Piston damage.
* Spark over-advanced (knock-induced damage).
* Insufficient enrichment.
Excessive Cylinder Pressure:
* Turbocharger damage.
Over-Speed:
* Catalyst damage.
Over-Temperature/Melting:
* Transmission, PTU, Torque converter damage.
Hardware Modifications:
The following list contains items that are frequently modified in an effort to increase the engines torque/power output. Modifying these items may, or may not improve the performance, but can lead to drivability issues, DTCs and possibly component failures:
* Air induction system (air box, low pressure and high pressure air ducts).
The system may be particularly susceptible to flexible air ducts between the air filter and the compressors. Restrictions on either side of the compressor can result in over-speeding the turbo (Figures 5-6).
* Wastegate actuator pre-tension.
The full load output of some turbocharged engines will increase if the wastegate spring pre-tension is increased. This is not the case with the EcoBoost engine. Adjusting the wastegate pre-tension out of the specified range can result in DTCs. A tamper evident paint dot has been applied to the wastegate actuator adjustment mechanism to make modifications more apparent.
* Throttle inlet and intake manifold pressure sensors.
These sensors and the associated wiring should be inspected to verify they have not been modified.
* Additional fuel injection devices.
The high pressure fuel system used for the EcoBoost engine will not support additional fuel flow beyond what the factory calibration requests. Inspect the engine for an additional aftermarket injector(s) located somewhere in the induction system to provided increased fuel flow.
* PCV system modifications.
If the PCV system is modified (vented to atmosphere being the most common modification) it can result in a condition where oil gets past the turbine seal even on an undamaged, fully functional turbocharger. Oil in the exhaust system may not be sufficient evidence to identify a failed turbo if the PCV system has been compromised.
* Compressor bypass modifications (a.k.a. blow-off valve, or anti-surge valve).
It is common to modify these components so they make more noise. If the aftermarket devices fail to seal properly when closed, elevated turbo speeds and compressor outlet temperatures will occur.
* Exhaust air path/system.
Removal of catalysts or mufflers/resonators to reduce exhaust backpressure may result in over-speeding the turbo(s).
* Thermostat modifications.
Blocking open the thermostat may reduce the coolant flow to the turbo chargers. Wastegate Tamper Evident Paint Dot
Figure 1 - Article 10-2-6
Review Engine Damage:
Piston Damage
Top ring delaminating and top ring land pitting caused by excessive spark advance.
I found this on FTE in a closed thread about "can tuners be detected" "And is also why ALL of the new Ford turbocharged vehicle PCM's are now encrypted by Bosch"
From yellow bullet, a racing forum:
To: All Ford and Lincoln Mercury Dealerships
Subject: Aftermarket Modifications Warranty Cancellation
BACKGROUND
Aftermarket companies (referred to as "tuners") attempt to increase an engine's torque and power output beyond the design limits which may cause powertrain failures. This is often accomplished by modifying the engine calibration (referred to as "chipping") but may also include modifications or adjustments to other components. Per the Warranty Guide that is provided to the customer and the Warranty & Policy Manual, failures resulting from modifications are not warranted by Ford Motor Company.
All powertrains are subject to warranty cancellation if a modification causes a failure. For the 3.5L EcoBoost technical service bulletin TSB 10-2-6 was published to enable your technicians to determine:
If a powertrain failure resulted from an unauthorized modification
If the engine, transmission, or entire powertrain warranty should be cancelled
Per the inspection process included in this TSB a Ford Motor Company inspector may assist with this analysis. When the inspection process clearly indicates that a failure was caused by an unauthorized modification/alteration the repair should not be completed under Warranty and, using the following process, the vehicle's remaining Engine, Transmission, or Powertrain warranty should be cancelled.
WARRANTY CANCELLATION PROCESS
To initiate a warranty cancellation on an affected vehicle, submit a warranty cancellation request form through FMCDealer.com. This on-line form can be accessed as follows:
FMCDealer.com
Select Parts & Service tab
Select Warranty Administration & Parts Return
Select Warranty Cancellation / Reinstatement Request Form
Complete and submit this form on-line.
Once the warranty is cancelled an OASIS message will advise all dealerships that the vehicle is no longer eligible for warranty coverage
Here is the TSB
Review Service Procedure
SERVICE PROCEDURE
Unauthorized calibration modifications may or may not be detectable using standard tools (Integrated Diagnostic System (IDS), Portable Diagnostic Software (PDS), NGS+ VCM). Changes can be made to the calibration and flashed to the PCM through the OBD port. Physical modifications to the hardware may or may not be present. If aftermarket power/torque-increasing modifications are suspected, care should be taken to record and store the following items: Permanent Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs), Pending DTCs, Freeze Frame Data, Mode 6 and Mode 9 data. The data should be printed and attached to the repair order for later reference.
The DTCs, freeze frame data, Mode 6 and 9 data can be obtained by using the IDS, PDS or NGS+VCM under tool box selection. The Powertrain tab will provide the OBD Test Modes tab and Mode 6 and 9 data selection after the vehicle has been identified.
Attempting to increase the engine output via recalibrating the PCM may result in poor drivability, DTCs, or component failures. A partial list of calibration induced component failures is given below:
* Piston damage.
* Spark over-advanced (knock-induced damage).
* Insufficient enrichment.
Excessive Cylinder Pressure:
* Turbocharger damage.
Over-Speed:
* Catalyst damage.
Over-Temperature/Melting:
* Transmission, PTU, Torque converter damage.
Hardware Modifications:
The following list contains items that are frequently modified in an effort to increase the engines torque/power output. Modifying these items may, or may not improve the performance, but can lead to drivability issues, DTCs and possibly component failures:
* Air induction system (air box, low pressure and high pressure air ducts).
The system may be particularly susceptible to flexible air ducts between the air filter and the compressors. Restrictions on either side of the compressor can result in over-speeding the turbo (Figures 5-6).
* Wastegate actuator pre-tension.
The full load output of some turbocharged engines will increase if the wastegate spring pre-tension is increased. This is not the case with the EcoBoost engine. Adjusting the wastegate pre-tension out of the specified range can result in DTCs. A tamper evident paint dot has been applied to the wastegate actuator adjustment mechanism to make modifications more apparent.
* Throttle inlet and intake manifold pressure sensors.
These sensors and the associated wiring should be inspected to verify they have not been modified.
* Additional fuel injection devices.
The high pressure fuel system used for the EcoBoost engine will not support additional fuel flow beyond what the factory calibration requests. Inspect the engine for an additional aftermarket injector(s) located somewhere in the induction system to provided increased fuel flow.
* PCV system modifications.
If the PCV system is modified (vented to atmosphere being the most common modification) it can result in a condition where oil gets past the turbine seal even on an undamaged, fully functional turbocharger. Oil in the exhaust system may not be sufficient evidence to identify a failed turbo if the PCV system has been compromised.
* Compressor bypass modifications (a.k.a. blow-off valve, or anti-surge valve).
It is common to modify these components so they make more noise. If the aftermarket devices fail to seal properly when closed, elevated turbo speeds and compressor outlet temperatures will occur.
* Exhaust air path/system.
Removal of catalysts or mufflers/resonators to reduce exhaust backpressure may result in over-speeding the turbo(s).
* Thermostat modifications.
Blocking open the thermostat may reduce the coolant flow to the turbo chargers. Wastegate Tamper Evident Paint Dot
Figure 1 - Article 10-2-6
Review Engine Damage:
Piston Damage
Top ring delaminating and top ring land pitting caused by excessive spark advance.
#3
03-07-2011, 02:43 PM
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I could have told you a tuner was detectable... I got taken to town on the injectors and a hydrolock on my 05 thanks to having a tuner (and pos injectors). It leaves a footprint every time you 're-flash'; which is anytime you change from tune-tune or tune-stock or stock-tune. I would be hesitant to put one on an EB since I think they are going to be real sticklers about warrantying those motors. I don't think reliability on a stock EB is going to be an issue, we will see how the tuners come out though. I think livernois could be one of the first to have a tune, we will see though 
This also depends a lot on the dealer and how modification friendly they are. I would have no problems putting one on a 5.0 or a 6.2, just like putting one on my 5.4. That whole letter above kinda pisses me off though, not everyone likes to drive a stock truck and not all of us want a crazy HP tune or drive like a bat out of hell with a tune, not everyone likes crummy factory shift points, etc, etc.. it is like they are saying buy it and like it as we made it or tough luck. I can see it from FoMoCo's side and our side, and I understand it, but it still sucks they want to choke it off completely..
This also depends a lot on the dealer and how modification friendly they are. I would have no problems putting one on a 5.0 or a 6.2, just like putting one on my 5.4. That whole letter above kinda pisses me off though, not everyone likes to drive a stock truck and not all of us want a crazy HP tune or drive like a bat out of hell with a tune, not everyone likes crummy factory shift points, etc, etc.. it is like they are saying buy it and like it as we made it or tough luck. I can see it from FoMoCo's side and our side, and I understand it, but it still sucks they want to choke it off completely..
Last edited by FX4life; 03-07-2011 at 06:41 PM.
#5
03-07-2011, 07:09 PM
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Bosch is not the super power that everyone thinks they are. I traded in my VW on my F150. I had my VW tuned. It was a direct port tune with five different tunes to switch between. So its definitely doable. I think its just going to take some time for the reputable tuners to get some really good tunes out there.
Just my two cents though...
Andy
Just my two cents though...
Andy
#6
03-07-2011, 09:54 PM
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Why would I performance mod a $40000 vehicle...If I wanted to performance mod I'd buy a rice rocket....(I wouldn't) I didn't buy a truck to go fast I bought it with reliability being my #1 concern. I'm sure I'm not alone with this line of thinking. I'm sure there will still be modding regardless once it becomes available. To each their own!
Last edited by Reddragon8; 03-07-2011 at 09:57 PM.
#7
03-07-2011, 11:39 PM
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#8
03-08-2011, 08:23 AM
#9
03-08-2011, 09:40 AM
Senior Member
I could have told you a tuner was detectable... I got taken to town on the injectors and a hydrolock on my 05 thanks to having a tuner (and pos injectors). It leaves a footprint every time you 're-flash'; which is anytime you change from tune-tune or tune-stock or stock-tune. I would be hesitant to put one on an EB since I think they are going to be real sticklers about warrantying those motors. I don't think reliability on a stock EB is going to be an issue, we will see how the tuners come out though. I think livernois could be one of the first to have a tune, we will see though
This also depends a lot on the dealer and how modification friendly they are. I would have no problems putting one on a 5.0 or a 6.2, just like putting one on my 5.4. That whole letter above kinda pisses me off though, not everyone likes to drive a stock truck and not all of us want a crazy HP tune or drive like a bat out of hell with a tune, not everyone likes crummy factory shift points, etc, etc.. it is like they are saying buy it and like it as we made it or tough luck. I can see it from FoMoCo's side and our side, and I understand it, but it still sucks they want to choke it off completely..
This also depends a lot on the dealer and how modification friendly they are. I would have no problems putting one on a 5.0 or a 6.2, just like putting one on my 5.4. That whole letter above kinda pisses me off though, not everyone likes to drive a stock truck and not all of us want a crazy HP tune or drive like a bat out of hell with a tune, not everyone likes crummy factory shift points, etc, etc.. it is like they are saying buy it and like it as we made it or tough luck. I can see it from FoMoCo's side and our side, and I understand it, but it still sucks they want to choke it off completely..
PS...my Edge didn't go on until after my warranty was up.
#10
03-08-2011, 10:55 AM
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I understand what you are saying about not wanting to drive a stock truck (heck, I have an Edge on my '05 mostly for the better tranny shifts), but why should Ford be expected to foot the bill for damages caused by a tuner. You wanna tune it, you gotta take the chance, not Ford. If my Edge caused problems, I wouldn't expect Ford to eat the cost...it's a chance I take by modifying a vehicle.
PS...my Edge didn't go on until after my warranty was up.
PS...my Edge didn't go on until after my warranty was up.
They shouldn't be expected to foot the bill, but they also shouldn't just cop off and void a warranty just for seeing a tuner. At least take the time to prove the tuner was what caused it. In my case I get slammed for having a footprint of the tuner in the PCM when my injectors are bad. I had to make the argument that the tune did not cause a known faulty injector from the factory to stick open, which fell on deaf ears... In short the letter ford sent about the injectors was BS because they refused to cover a known issue from the factory. I can rant on that for days, but this is a time when I think it should be proven that tuner caused or did not cause the failure. The problem is the moss-magnuson act (In short: to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a modification caused the failure...)to protect us as owners who modify is too costly to pursue. Ford knows that.. how many of us are going to go to court with ford over a 1k repair bill and spend tens of thousands in court to prove a modification did not cause the failure? Ford is not willing to take the time to prove it anyway... Moss-Magnuson is more of a feel good law because it offers no protection at all!
Now if you tune an EB and put too much boost and lift/warp the heads, start leaking oil out of every gasket, etc, etc (comparable to a 6.uhOh tune) then yea they could see that a know exactly what happened. I can see it getting to a point though that manuf. will look at any modification as a reason to not warranty something related or unrelated. Heck some already do! This is why if your going down mod road you have to know the dealer is going to back you up, or be okay with footing the bill, or know you just are not going to use ford service for repairs.
#11
03-08-2011, 12:58 PM
Senior Member
That is what was implied when I made this statement:
They shouldn't be expected to foot the bill, but they also shouldn't just cop off and void a warranty just for seeing a tuner. At least take the time to prove the tuner was what caused it. In my case I get slammed for having a footprint of the tuner in the PCM when my injectors are bad. I had to make the argument that the tune did not cause a known faulty injector from the factory to stick open, which fell on deaf ears... In short the letter ford sent about the injectors was BS because they refused to cover a known issue from the factory. I can rant on that for days, but this is a time when I think it should be proven that tuner caused or did not cause the failure. The problem is the moss-magnuson act (In short: to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a modification caused the failure...)to protect us as owners who modify is too costly to pursue. Ford knows that.. how many of us are going to go to court with ford over a 1k repair bill and spend tens of thousands in court to prove a modification did not cause the failure? Ford is not willing to take the time to prove it anyway... Moss-Magnuson is more of a feel good law because it offers no protection at all!
Now if you tune an EB and put too much boost and lift/warp the heads, start leaking oil out of every gasket, etc, etc (comparable to a 6.uhOh tune) then yea they could see that a know exactly what happened. I can see it getting to a point though that manuf. will look at any modification as a reason to not warranty something related or unrelated. Heck some already do! This is why if your going down mod road you have to know the dealer is going to back you up, or be okay with footing the bill, or know you just are not going to use ford service for repairs.
They shouldn't be expected to foot the bill, but they also shouldn't just cop off and void a warranty just for seeing a tuner. At least take the time to prove the tuner was what caused it. In my case I get slammed for having a footprint of the tuner in the PCM when my injectors are bad. I had to make the argument that the tune did not cause a known faulty injector from the factory to stick open, which fell on deaf ears... In short the letter ford sent about the injectors was BS because they refused to cover a known issue from the factory. I can rant on that for days, but this is a time when I think it should be proven that tuner caused or did not cause the failure. The problem is the moss-magnuson act (In short: to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a modification caused the failure...)to protect us as owners who modify is too costly to pursue. Ford knows that.. how many of us are going to go to court with ford over a 1k repair bill and spend tens of thousands in court to prove a modification did not cause the failure? Ford is not willing to take the time to prove it anyway... Moss-Magnuson is more of a feel good law because it offers no protection at all!
Now if you tune an EB and put too much boost and lift/warp the heads, start leaking oil out of every gasket, etc, etc (comparable to a 6.uhOh tune) then yea they could see that a know exactly what happened. I can see it getting to a point though that manuf. will look at any modification as a reason to not warranty something related or unrelated. Heck some already do! This is why if your going down mod road you have to know the dealer is going to back you up, or be okay with footing the bill, or know you just are not going to use ford service for repairs.
Now, if there are a string of faulty injectors with the same symptons (on non-tuned trucks) and yours has the issue, then yeah, there is a high probability that it is the same issue, and probably should be covered. But, as a manufacturer, they have to draw the line somewhere.
#12
03-08-2011, 04:09 PM
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Now, if there are a string of faulty injectors with the same symptons (on non-tuned trucks) and yours has the issue, then yeah, there is a high probability that it is the same issue, and probably should be covered. But, as a manufacturer, they have to draw the line somewhere.
#13
03-08-2011, 04:54 PM
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The Moss-Magnum act is really useless..........
All the FoMoCo (or any other company) has to do is throw the 'burden of proof' on you, the consumer, and unless you have knowledge of the law, you gonna have to hire an attorney, then it's bye-bye big bux.
Who knows, maybe in the end you'll win the case but in the meantime at least 2 years have gone by and sometimes the judge will order your costs paid, sometimes not.
I took a Harley dealer to small claims court where no lawyers were allowed.
Still took over a year, 7 court visits (187 miles, round trip), lots of headaches and my costs weren't covered. Even though they were requested as part of the judgement
All I could receive was $3,000, because of jurisdictional limits (Which I eventually got) but was it worth it?
Eventually it became a 'matter of principle' to me. I'd been ripped off and was gonna make them pay!! (Bad mistake letting your emotions rule your judgement over common sense.) Especially in a court of law.
Had I to do it again, I wouldn't. Big, big PIA.
All the FoMoCo (or any other company) has to do is throw the 'burden of proof' on you, the consumer, and unless you have knowledge of the law, you gonna have to hire an attorney, then it's bye-bye big bux.
Who knows, maybe in the end you'll win the case but in the meantime at least 2 years have gone by and sometimes the judge will order your costs paid, sometimes not.
I took a Harley dealer to small claims court where no lawyers were allowed.
Still took over a year, 7 court visits (187 miles, round trip), lots of headaches and my costs weren't covered. Even though they were requested as part of the judgement
All I could receive was $3,000, because of jurisdictional limits (Which I eventually got) but was it worth it?
Eventually it became a 'matter of principle' to me. I'd been ripped off and was gonna make them pay!! (Bad mistake letting your emotions rule your judgement over common sense.) Especially in a court of law.
Had I to do it again, I wouldn't. Big, big PIA.
#14
03-08-2011, 05:07 PM
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I used to work as a Service Manager. If you come in to have a CEL checked and the Tech notices a CAI on the vehicle, they will not cover the diagnostic and/or repair under warranty. It's that simple.
If your F150 run's lean due to a CAI or bad tune, you burn a hole in your piston or cause other damage, you lose your warranty on the part of the vehicle that was affected by the modification. Engine powertrain, emissions, etc.
The Mangnuson-Moss Act protect's all vehicle consumers. Is it worth it to sue a vehicle manufacturer over them refusing to warranty a specific item? Most of us on this forum do not have that kind of money to fight it. It all comes down to one thing, if you mod your vehicle you take a chance at losing all or a portion of your manufacturer's warranty.
http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/magmoss.htm
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pub.../11frdwa5e.pdf
Damage Caused by Alteration or Modification
The New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any damage caused by:
alterations or modifications of the vehicle, including the body, chassis,
or components, after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford Motor
Company
tampering with the vehicle, tampering with the emissions systems or
with the other parts that affect these systems (for example, but not
limited to exhaust and intake systems)
the installation or use of a non-Ford Motor Company part (other than
a certified emissions part) or any part (Ford or non-Ford) designed
for off-road use only installed after the vehicle leaves the control of
Ford Motor Company, if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part
to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to lift kits, oversized
tires, roll bars, cellular phones, alarm systems, automatic starting
systems and performance-enhancing powertrain components or
software and performance chips
13
If your F150 run's lean due to a CAI or bad tune, you burn a hole in your piston or cause other damage, you lose your warranty on the part of the vehicle that was affected by the modification. Engine powertrain, emissions, etc.
The Mangnuson-Moss Act protect's all vehicle consumers. Is it worth it to sue a vehicle manufacturer over them refusing to warranty a specific item? Most of us on this forum do not have that kind of money to fight it. It all comes down to one thing, if you mod your vehicle you take a chance at losing all or a portion of your manufacturer's warranty.
http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/magmoss.htm
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pub.../11frdwa5e.pdf
Damage Caused by Alteration or Modification
The New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any damage caused by:
alterations or modifications of the vehicle, including the body, chassis,
or components, after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford Motor
Company
tampering with the vehicle, tampering with the emissions systems or
with the other parts that affect these systems (for example, but not
limited to exhaust and intake systems)
the installation or use of a non-Ford Motor Company part (other than
a certified emissions part) or any part (Ford or non-Ford) designed
for off-road use only installed after the vehicle leaves the control of
Ford Motor Company, if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part
to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to lift kits, oversized
tires, roll bars, cellular phones, alarm systems, automatic starting
systems and performance-enhancing powertrain components or
software and performance chips
13
#15
03-08-2011, 06:45 PM
