Battery dead after sitting for one week?
Global Moderator &
Senior Member
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,890
Likes: 61
From: Among javelinas and scorpions in Zoniestan
yeah but Jim Click is one of those rare dealerships that actually gives a damm about repeat business Ive bought several vehicles from him and have got nothing but excellent service from him over the years and a friend of mine bought a used 150 from him several years ago still under warranty he brought it in several times for a knock they coud not find Click was walking thru the service area when my friend was starting to get angry about bringing it in so many time he walked up listened to the story and looked at his service manager and said why havnt you ordered a new engine for him and get the mans truck fixed it its under warranty just fix it and just like that new engine 
But, his is a big dealership. I think there are at least 10 "Service Advisors" on duty at any one time. I'm trying to establish a working relationship with just one of them so I won't look like a stranger. I've found that not all Service Advisors give the same advice or are as willing to help you out as others are too. This is were things can get sticky.
And, BTW, Jim Click owns Nissan, Hyundai, Chrysler/Jeep, Masda, Ford/Linclln/Mercury dealerships in Tucson; I think he's got a few in California and he owns at least a couple of banks if memory serves. I think he's "spread pretty thin" - but he started with Ford and his success says a lot about the way he does business.
- Jack
Suspended
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
From: guess
I have to agree with your opinion of Jim Click, he's VERY active in the community and funds a lot of worthy causes.
But, his is a big dealership. I think there are at least 10 "Service Advisors" on duty at any one time. I'm trying to establish a working relationship with just one of them so I won't look like a stranger. I've found that not all Service Advisors give the same advice or are as willing to help you out as others are too. This is were things can get sticky.
And, BTW, Jim Click owns Nissan, Hyundai, Chrysler/Jeep, Masda, Ford/Linclln/Mercury dealerships in Tucson; I think he's got a few in California and he owns at least a couple of banks if memory serves. I think he's "spread pretty thin" - but he started with Ford and his success says a lot about the way he does business.
- Jack
But, his is a big dealership. I think there are at least 10 "Service Advisors" on duty at any one time. I'm trying to establish a working relationship with just one of them so I won't look like a stranger. I've found that not all Service Advisors give the same advice or are as willing to help you out as others are too. This is were things can get sticky.
And, BTW, Jim Click owns Nissan, Hyundai, Chrysler/Jeep, Masda, Ford/Linclln/Mercury dealerships in Tucson; I think he's got a few in California and he owns at least a couple of banks if memory serves. I think he's "spread pretty thin" - but he started with Ford and his success says a lot about the way he does business.
- Jack
Technical Article Contributor
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 25,641
Likes: 19
From: MI
I agree about taking it in - There's plenty of learning experiences ahead. This isn't a good one, I have a feeling you have a well hidden bare wire making contact where it shouldn't - Let them find that one. Explain it well to the service rep - asking to talk to the tech who will be working on it is your best chance, of getting things fixed successfully.
Global Moderator &
Senior Member
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,890
Likes: 61
From: Among javelinas and scorpions in Zoniestan
Confusing test results
OK, this still belongs in the Electrical Forum, but since it got started here, it needs "closure". Doubt if this really qualifies, but here goes: I finally tried pulling fuses while measuring current draw. I put my ammeter on the 2 amp scale to get more accurate readings, these are the results:
But, I still don't know where the total 0.058-0.064 amp draw is coming from. I can account for only about 0.016 amps through the fuses I pulled. Maybe I should have pulled EVERY fuse, but I got tired. And, of course, I need to really look at the battery harness down under the truck (among the spiders).
Wreed, I suggest you just take YOUR truck to the dealer, Norm and jbrew are giving you good advice!
- Jack
System "idle" since previous day with battery at full charge (12.88 volts) pulls 0.058-0.064 amps with everything "turned off. The amperage is constantly fluctuating in that range.
Pulled fuse #3 (Power mirrors, memory seats and pedals) - no change.
Fuse #5 (Keep alive memory for PCM and climate control) - Amperage draw increased to over 0.2 amps, then dropped to 0.074 amps after about 20-30 sec, then dropped to a steady 0.054 amps. So, this circuit supplies power at rest. Reinserted fuse and current went back to 0.058-0.064 amps.
Fuse #7 (Radio start signal) - no change.
Fuse #21 (Cluster keep alive power) - amperage dropped to 0.56-0.061 (fluctuating). Reinserted fuse and draw increased to 0.547, then dropped to 0.74 and finally went back to 0.058-0.064 amps.
Fuse #24 (Battery saver power) - no change.
Fuse #28 (SecuriLock tranceiver - PATS) - no change.
Fuse #31 (Radio power) - dropped to 0.56-0.061 amps. Reinserted and amperage rose to 1.3 amps while CD changer cycled, then dropped to 0.058-0.064.
Fuse #41 (Cigar lighter, OBDII port power) dropped to 0.048-0.054 amps. Reinserted fuse, amperage back to 0.058-0.064.
Fuse #107 (Power door locks) - dropped to 0.056-0.061 amps. Reinserting fuse blew the 2 amp fuse in my meter.
There are clearly things here I don't understand, such as why the current draw should rise for a while when fuse #5 is pulled. Why did resetting fuse #107 put such a huge draw on the circuit that it blew my meter? I suspect things are reinitializing when #21 and #31 are reset, so they seem ok.Pulled fuse #3 (Power mirrors, memory seats and pedals) - no change.
Fuse #5 (Keep alive memory for PCM and climate control) - Amperage draw increased to over 0.2 amps, then dropped to 0.074 amps after about 20-30 sec, then dropped to a steady 0.054 amps. So, this circuit supplies power at rest. Reinserted fuse and current went back to 0.058-0.064 amps.
Fuse #7 (Radio start signal) - no change.
Fuse #21 (Cluster keep alive power) - amperage dropped to 0.56-0.061 (fluctuating). Reinserted fuse and draw increased to 0.547, then dropped to 0.74 and finally went back to 0.058-0.064 amps.
Fuse #24 (Battery saver power) - no change.
Fuse #28 (SecuriLock tranceiver - PATS) - no change.
Fuse #31 (Radio power) - dropped to 0.56-0.061 amps. Reinserted and amperage rose to 1.3 amps while CD changer cycled, then dropped to 0.058-0.064.
Fuse #41 (Cigar lighter, OBDII port power) dropped to 0.048-0.054 amps. Reinserted fuse, amperage back to 0.058-0.064.
Fuse #107 (Power door locks) - dropped to 0.056-0.061 amps. Reinserting fuse blew the 2 amp fuse in my meter.
But, I still don't know where the total 0.058-0.064 amp draw is coming from. I can account for only about 0.016 amps through the fuses I pulled. Maybe I should have pulled EVERY fuse, but I got tired. And, of course, I need to really look at the battery harness down under the truck (among the spiders).
Wreed, I suggest you just take YOUR truck to the dealer, Norm and jbrew are giving you good advice!
- Jack
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,603
Likes: 0
From: cypress tx
I just dropped the truck off at the dealer. I called 2 different service departments and took it to the guy who was most helpful and let me explain the situation and the self diagnoses I have done. He completely agreed the battery should last longer than 1 week and said the Optima was no problem, dont worry about it. He even offered to get me a ride back to my house!
He did say though his electrical guy is backed up and to give him a couple days so I will post what they say when he calls.
He did say though his electrical guy is backed up and to give him a couple days so I will post what they say when he calls.
Global Moderator &
Senior Member
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,890
Likes: 61
From: Among javelinas and scorpions in Zoniestan
William, I'd say you have a good dealership guy here - jump on it!
My tests have shown me how little I know about a modern, microprocessor-based, automotive electrical sustem. I suspect I'll HAVE to pull all the fuses (not just the ones I thought were likely culprits) to see if there is a problem "downstream" of the fuse block. If I don't find anythng, it means if there is a problem, it's in the bus that feeds the block, which is what jbrew has been telling us to look at too.
And, in my case, I'm not even sure my current draw IS excessive! Again, I point to the number of owners who've said their trucks were only good for about 3 weeks, which was my experience with the programmer attached. Using the new, more precisely measured, static draw of about 0.06 amps (without the programmer), the battery would lose 50 amps in just under 35 days - 5 weeks. But that's without opening doors or other events which put a much higher draw on the battery.
I'd really be pleased to see what others with 2004+ model year trucks have for a "static draw". Anybody want to check theirs and post what you find?
- Jack
My tests have shown me how little I know about a modern, microprocessor-based, automotive electrical sustem. I suspect I'll HAVE to pull all the fuses (not just the ones I thought were likely culprits) to see if there is a problem "downstream" of the fuse block. If I don't find anythng, it means if there is a problem, it's in the bus that feeds the block, which is what jbrew has been telling us to look at too.
And, in my case, I'm not even sure my current draw IS excessive! Again, I point to the number of owners who've said their trucks were only good for about 3 weeks, which was my experience with the programmer attached. Using the new, more precisely measured, static draw of about 0.06 amps (without the programmer), the battery would lose 50 amps in just under 35 days - 5 weeks. But that's without opening doors or other events which put a much higher draw on the battery.
I'd really be pleased to see what others with 2004+ model year trucks have for a "static draw". Anybody want to check theirs and post what you find?
- Jack
Technical Article Contributor
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 25,641
Likes: 19
From: MI
Good deal wreedKR - Sounds like you lucked out. I just hope the electrician is in an troubleshooting mood lol. By the sounds of it - He's good
JackandJanet - I read your post a few times - Your really getting into it. What I notice is the similarities right off. Similarities, fluctuations that are relatively in the same parameter set tell me it's a good circuit.
KAM -
45 -52 mA for my model (1000 Milli-amps = 1.0 amp) - I would check the recommended battery drain specification for the vehicle and follow any manufacturer recommended test procedure to ensure test accuracy. They vary by model and accessory of course. Yours look okay - (Key-Off Battery Drain)
IMO between 40 -90 mA (90=ABSOLUTE MAX). Shouldn't hurt the battery beyond spec.
I believe there's more than one fuse that relates to the KAM - Not sure on your model because they change things around so much.
Did you check the KAM with battery disconnected?
Hell, I just ZAP the PRAM and call it good
- Like those old Apples..- It actually can be done.
JackandJanet - I read your post a few times - Your really getting into it. What I notice is the similarities right off. Similarities, fluctuations that are relatively in the same parameter set tell me it's a good circuit.
KAM -
45 -52 mA for my model (1000 Milli-amps = 1.0 amp) - I would check the recommended battery drain specification for the vehicle and follow any manufacturer recommended test procedure to ensure test accuracy. They vary by model and accessory of course. Yours look okay - (Key-Off Battery Drain)
IMO between 40 -90 mA (90=ABSOLUTE MAX). Shouldn't hurt the battery beyond spec.
I believe there's more than one fuse that relates to the KAM - Not sure on your model because they change things around so much.
Did you check the KAM with battery disconnected?
Hell, I just ZAP the PRAM and call it good
- Like those old Apples..- It actually can be done.
Last edited by jbrew; Jul 31, 2008 at 09:47 PM. Reason: left a word out
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,603
Likes: 0
From: cypress tx
I attempted to test my draw but like Jack said it blew the fuse in my meter.
I put a test light between the negative cable and battery post and it lit up like no tomorrow then backed down a little, my guess was the brightness at first was the cd changer booting up.
I put a test light between the negative cable and battery post and it lit up like no tomorrow then backed down a little, my guess was the brightness at first was the cd changer booting up.
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,603
Likes: 0
From: cypress tx
Fuse blew because when the truck initally gets power back thru the meter for the first time it blows the 2 amp fuse in the meter..
That is why Jack used some short jumper cables to keep the current flowing, then he connected his meter and removed one of the jumper cables so all current is flowing thru meter and it can be read.
I think that is what happened Jbrew.
That is why Jack used some short jumper cables to keep the current flowing, then he connected his meter and removed one of the jumper cables so all current is flowing thru meter and it can be read.
I think that is what happened Jbrew.
Global Moderator &
Senior Member
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,890
Likes: 61
From: Among javelinas and scorpions in Zoniestan
Thanks, jbrew. Your telling me that you have 0.045-0.052 amps for KAM says what I'm seeing is not unreasonable. I actually didn't think so, but, you never know. It was interesting how pulling the KAM fuse for the PCM caused the current to rise for a while, then drop below the initial state and become steady. As long as this fuse was in, the amp draw fluctuated.
I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean when you say to test KAM with the battery disconnected. :o What am I looking for? I know I lose the radio presets, the clock setting, the message center values for "split" miles driven, average mpg and miles to empty. Possibly, I need to recalibrate the compass too. (Damned King Ranch has more bells and whistles than a fighter plane).
Your last sounds like the old philosophy of just "driving the gates to the rails". At least you find out if the circuit works.
- Jack
I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean when you say to test KAM with the battery disconnected. :o What am I looking for? I know I lose the radio presets, the clock setting, the message center values for "split" miles driven, average mpg and miles to empty. Possibly, I need to recalibrate the compass too. (Damned King Ranch has more bells and whistles than a fighter plane).
Your last sounds like the old philosophy of just "driving the gates to the rails". At least you find out if the circuit works.
- Jack
Global Moderator &
Senior Member
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,890
Likes: 61
From: Among javelinas and scorpions in Zoniestan
Huge surge in our trucks, jbrew, when you reconnect an unconnected battery. The headlights, parking lights, CD changer and a whole bunch of other things come on briefly when you do this. It clearly draws more than 10 amps for a short time.
That's why I have to keep the circuit alive before splicing the ammeter in.
- Jack
That's why I have to keep the circuit alive before splicing the ammeter in.
- Jack
Got 2 more, just need a quad head video card.
Global Moderator &
Senior Member
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,890
Likes: 61
From: Among javelinas and scorpions in Zoniestan
You should be right at home in your truck, William - and, hey, I recognize the truck on that lower right monitor!
But, as you (and I) are finding out, when you combine a nice digital control system with some other analog systems, things get a bit "dicey". These "embedded systems" are not the easiest to troubleshoot - at least not without a detailed schematic.
I wonder how much of the current circutry was a "bandaid" to correct earlier problems? (Which are still there).
One thing we all agree on - your battery should not die so soon! Good you have a dealership that understands that.
- Jack
But, as you (and I) are finding out, when you combine a nice digital control system with some other analog systems, things get a bit "dicey". These "embedded systems" are not the easiest to troubleshoot - at least not without a detailed schematic.
I wonder how much of the current circutry was a "bandaid" to correct earlier problems? (Which are still there).
One thing we all agree on - your battery should not die so soon! Good you have a dealership that understands that.
- Jack