Yea, if you're that confident (and you certainly sound such) that it's not another plug, and can rule out an exhaust leak based on that, then hard to track down a sound in a forum. I don't doubt/question your garage, but when you say "clicking is not another plug", is this based off your trust of the shop or did you check them yourself?

 

Galaxy,

I have a 2002 F-250 with 139,000 miles on it. 3 months ago I had my local repair shop install an insert in the number 6 cylinder head. Lately I have been noticing other ticking noises from the other spark plugs. I would like to replace these with new spark plugs and torque them properly.

Do I need to inspect the threads on the remaining spark plug holes before I torque the new spark plugs? I am worried that the other loose plugs may have stripped the threads partially and if I try to tighten them I may cause more damage.

Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You

 

Robert,

My e-mail included below for others educational purposes if needed...

Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done to "save" the threads if there is any damage done, or otherwise for that matter. The problem with our heads in the first place is the minimal number of threads (4) to begin with, and being aluminum to boot. You can sometimes get in there at the right angle with a good, small inspection mirror and a flashlight (not literally down in the hole, just low enough and at the right angle to see them well) and try to look for damage. Most of the time it's hard to discern unless you know what you're looking for. The few threads that are there as it is makes it hard to differentiate between good to go and missing threads.

Probably not what you want to hear, but there's really only one way to approach this and fate will determine the outcome. It's kinda like that bolt that feels like its gonna break off when you're turning it...it's either gonna break or back out. Either way, you have to keep turning cause there's nothing else you can do about it. Make sense?

My point being, install your plugs, torque them down, and sleep well at night. It's either going to work or it's not; there's no in between. Other than inserting every hole, there is no preventative maintenance for the threads/hole. Sorry.

You know the correct torque is 28 lb/ft dry! If it feels like its gonna strip, then you can stop before you go to far, but I don't think you'll have that problem. Just because a plug is loose or backed out is not a guarantee that the threads are damaged. If you have a bad one, drive it til it blows and we'll get it fixed up with a TimeSert when we cross that bridge.

No, I do not recommend TimeSerting every hole just for the sake of preventative maintenance. The odds are by far in your favor that you're not going to blow a bunch of plugs or have additional problems, thus making it not worth the money or effort to do all of them. 99.9% of trucks and 100% of my customers have never blown more than one plug on a given motor, and it sounds like you've already used your odds, so don't sweat it. If you do find another bad one, like I said, we'll deal with it, but don't lose sleep over a plug change because of the 'possibility'.

Hope this all helped. Install your plugs, torque them down, and let me know how it goes!!!

Did they use a TimeSert on that current repaired hole?? Hope so;-)

 

My 2000 F150 4.6 liter 2V engine appears to have at least two inserts in the #5 and #6 plug holes. There may be more, but I haven't looked at them all yet. I'm trying to figure out how to how to check the inserts to see if they are still intact and/or how to change the plugs without further damaging the inserts. I don't know which kind of inserts they are - helicoil, Timesert etc.

Background - Bought the truck last spring with 160,000 mi. Fixed a CEL indicating coil problem and a miss on #1 cyl last month by replacing the COP. It ran fine on a 1000 mi round trip to Chicago and back with a trailer. My daughter then took the truck to haul some stuff to New Hampshire - 600 mi one way. She got a CEL shortly after leaving that indicated a miss on #6 - not specific code. I caught up with her, replaced the COP on that cyl (actually tried two aftermarket COPs and the second one seemed to be better) and tried to replace the spark plug. When I took out the plug on the side of the road it appeared to be oversized. I figured out later it was actually a regular plug inside an insert. At the time I took it out I didn't know that and just put it back in. I still had one new aftermarket COP, so I also replaced another COP on #8 that seemed to be an original Motorcraft. Replacing the COP on #6 the second time appeared to fix the miss after she drove the truck up several hills, so after following a while I let her go on. She drove it to NH and got the CEL back when almost there. I had her take the truck to a dealer there and asked them to fix #6 and replace all the plugs. They checked #6, said it was "fine" (but didn't replace the plug for some reason) and said #5 had an intermittent miss, but they could not get the plug out of #5 - said it was stuck. They apparently did get the plug out of #6 so that it comes out and leaves the insert in the head. They apparently didn't change any other plugs as I had requested. They also replaced a brake line which probably was needed.

She drove the truck back to me this week. It again got a CEL 100 miles out but drove in OK. I started looking at it today. It showed P0306 - miss on #6 like before. I could not hear or feel any blowby on either #5 or #6 when the truck is running. I took out the #6 plug and replaced it with a new Motorcraft. After running a few minutes the CEL on that one has not come back yet. I tried disconnecting and reconnecting the elec connector on #5 but really couldn't tell if it made a difference or not. I loosened the #5 plug a little and sprayed it with PBBlaster. This is where it stands tonight. I plan to see if I can "ease" that plug out after it soaks, and see if I can see any inserts in the other plug holes. I want to try to replace all the plugs with Motorcraft, but I'm worried I may break off a plug or damage the inserts. I probably will also replace the other COPs that have not been changed.

I would like any advice that may help me figure out what kind of inserts are in there, how to remove the plugs, and whether I should do anything else to make sure the inserts and plugs are good and as stable as possible and the plugs are firing.

Update - Finally got the plug out of #5. It came out with an insert. I had soaked it for a couple of days in PBB and WD40. I nearly "lost it" as I was tightening and loosening alternately, and at one point it moved in so far I lost hold with the socket. I had to grind off the end of the socket to make the holding surfaces flush with the end to get hold of it again. After that I just turned it all the way out with a 3/8 rachet. I'm going to try to add a picture of the #5 and #6 plugs. #5 clearly is in bad shape, but according to the Autofair dealer in NH, it was firing intermittently. Hard to believe it was firing at all. The plug really doesn't want to come out of the insert, so I don't think I can put the same insert back in.

https://www.f150online.com/forums/me...s5and6top.html

Anyway, I'm hoping someone can help me identify the insert and suggest what to do next. It is not a spring-type. From the descriptions I've heard, it looks like a Timesert or something similar. The outer diameter of the insert is 16.8 mm and the top 3 threads look like cutting threads. I've read that Timesert has 3 cutting threads. The bottom 3 threads look like they have picked up some aluminum from the head. So I want to figure out if I can just put a new Timesert in the existing threads, or if I have to rethread it or get an oversize insert (like Bigsert). It took a moderate amount of force to get the insert out, so there appear to be some threads left in the hole. Note- neither #5 nor #6 plugs nor the inserts blew out on me, but obviously they had blown out on a previous owner.

I've also posted this in the 97-03 forum, but this looks like a better place.

Galaxy - I would particularly like your opinion of whether I should try a regular Timesert or if I need to go to a Bigsert. Either way, I might be interested in getting a set from you if you have them. I still want to do some checking on the other plugs and see if the engine has any other inserts.

 

They said it was fine and didn't replace the plug because they found the insert and didn't want to deal with it, and/or couldn't get the insert off the plug to put back in the hole...that's why.

There is no real solid way to prevent damaging the threads, if there's any left. It's kinda like that cross-threaded bolt you need to get out. No reason to turn it slow or fast, and there's nothing you can do about it. That bolt is either going to come out or it's going to break...one or the other, no in-between. You can soak the threads as you've mentioned and that may help, but if the threads are going to break free, that's what's gonna happen and then we'll deal with the repair afterwards. Broke plugs are historically not an issue on this motor, so I wouldn't worry too much about that one.



TimeSert inserts do not have cutting threads, if I'm understanding you correctly. The insert doesn't make any threads on its way in. It screws into clean threads created by the tap that you use to make threads for the insert.

If it came out with the spark plug, it's 99.999999% likely NOT a TimeSert (BTW...looked at your photo's. No TimeSert in those pics!!). Those don't come out. I've never, never, ever heard of a TimeSert insert backing out with/still attached to a spark plug. If it was installed properly, there's locktite on the threads and there's a metal anchor in the insert that gets pressed into the head via a special tool you use during installation to ensure that sucker can't turn out.

Two things here that must be done. First, before beginning this project, you need to ensure you have all the old insert out of the hole. The only surefire way to determine if you need a BigSert or if the regular TimeSert will work is with a tool in the TimeSert kit. The first cutting tool you use is the reamer that cuts the new hole. If the hole is small enough that this reamer cuts a clean, new hole, then you're in business. If it won't, then it's BigSert time. The reason to get all the old inert out before this tool is if you don't, it will more than likely push the insert down into the cylinder and you'll be left fishing it out. Depending on the size and pieces, this could be more difficult that vacuuming out metal shavings.

 

Update on my post above. I removed plugs #1, 2, 3 and 8 and they seem to be fine, except #1 was kinda loose. All four of these were the older type plug that only has 5 full threads on the plug with a longer smooth section above the threads. From this I'm assuming these are either the original plugs or were at least put in early in the life of the truck (they are Autolite). They all look good, except #1 was a little dirtier. I replaced all 4 with Motorcraft platinum plugs and they all tightened up OK to 28 ft-lbs. I'll post a picture in the gallery.

I think they actually put the insert back in #6 with something to hold it in, and must have loosened the plug. After they worked on it, I was able to easily remove the old plug and replace it with a new Motorcraft. Earlier, when I took out the plug on the road the insert came out too, and I had put it back in not knowing what it was. It seems strange they didn't put in a new plug there, as I specifically asked them to change the plug and check to make sure #6 was all OK. Anyway, it was no trouble to replace the plug, so I'm not going to worry about it. I don't see an easy way to remove the insert from #6 now and I have no indication it is loose, so I'm inclined to leave it for now. In fact, if I had been able to get the plug out of #5 without the insert, I think the insert in #5 probably would have been OK too. I think I may have partially caused the problem with #5 when I turned it too far in. Neither insert showed any indication of being close to blowout.

Makes sense. I decided to go ahead and take out the other plugs so I'll know the status of all the plugs and see if there are any other inserts, as indicated above. I probably won't have time to take out #4 and 7 until sometime this weekend. Hopefully, they will be "normal" and my problem will be limited to #5.

I had thought I read that the top 3 TimeSert threads were different from the others to help set the insert. It might have been something else I was reading. The inserts in my engine now appear to be some kind of generic type, but they are solid, not the coil type. I was able to get the #5 plug separated from the insert today, and I'll post a pic of the insert in my gallery.

I agree.

The old insert that was in #5 appears to be intact - I'll post a picture in a few minutes. It is not in a condition to be put back in because of damage to the threads, some of which I did taking it loose from the plug.

My main concern about Timesert versus Bigsert is that the old insert appeared to bring some aluminum along with it in the threads, so I'm worried that the hole may be slightly too large for the regular size TimeSert insert. I think what you're suggesting is to try the regular TimeSert tool first and then go to Bigsert if needed. I have no problem with that approach, except if possible I would like to avoid renting or buying two complete sets of tools.

As mentioned, my next step is to check the other two plugs, #4 and 7. It looks like I need to move the fuel rail to get to #7, and #4 is pretty far back and may take me a little longer too. I'll try to check both of those in the next few days. Luckily, I don't have to use the truck soon.

Pictures https://www.f150online.com/forums/me...0&ref=gnr-prev

Thanks very much for the detailed reply and the PM.

 

I got out the last two spark plugs in my 4.6 l engine - #4 and 7. They look fine and are the old type with only 5 threads. So it appears I only have two spark plug inserts in #5 and 6. #6 was replaced by a dealer mechanic and the plug came out of OK. I don't know of a way to remove the #6 insert to replace it. #5 insert is out and in bad shape. My plan is to put a TimeSert in #5 with the help of Galaxy. I have ordered a cheap borescope camera so I can look in the plug holes and make sure there are no insert pieces lying around. Here's a picture of the complete set of plugs that came out and the insert from #5.
https://www.f150online.com/forums/me...-10272011.html

 

I ordered 5 Timeserts and a Bigsert so I could measure them directly - both are the same outside diameter and external threads. I emailed Timesert on their website today and they were very helpful. It turns out that the Bigserts and regular Timesert inserts are identical except for the longer internal threads on the Bigsert. Same OD and external threads. Not sure why the difference in names. I asked about the difference in tool kits 5553 and 5141. They said the 5141 will work but the tools are shorter and are made for working on smaller engines. They confirmed that to install Timesert after removing an old insert, the counterbore tool will not be used, and there is a special ring to be used with the setting tool for use with the Bigsert (again because of the longer internal threads).

I did manage to remove the old insert from cyl #6 today with a bolt extractor. It came out fairly easily and the threads on it and the hole look good in that cylinder. If I didn't have to work on #5 anyway, I would probably just put the old insert back in #6. Now I plan to do both of them with Timeserts.

 

Just to wrap up the info I posted earlier, I just finished putting Time-Sert Triton inserts in cylinders #5 and 6 with the help of a toolkit rental from Galaxy, cylinders where I had earlier removed Helicoils. It went well. It took me most of the afternoon, but I also took out all the other plugs and COPs and then put them back in to check how the holes look, make sure the plugs were tight, grease up the COPs, etc. Total cost was less than $100 for renting the Time-Sert tool kit and inserts (not counting my time). The inserts look really good and seem solid. I'm going to post a few pictures in the photo gallery. One concern I had was getting all the cuttings out, but the truck seems to run great so far. Hopefully the Time-Serts will last and not cause missfires. I probably won't do it because of the time involved, but I was considering putting Time-Serts in all the other cylinders as a preventative measure.

One question for those who have used Time-Serts. Did you have to run a cooler plug in those cylinders?

Pictures: https://www.f150online.com/forums/mem...ark+plugs.html
__________________

 

No change in spark plug because of the TimeSert. Run whatever you run in the truck and what you run in all the other cylinders. you WILL NOT get any misfiring or occurrence because of a TimeSert...that cylider is better off than the others.

 

If a spark plug was to blow out & you continue driving it, would it still keep pumping the fuel to the cylinder & eventually start the engine compartment on fire? If Ford owners start having engine compartment fires wouldn't that be enough for a recall on the head design?
If my vehicle blows a plug in a winter storm & I am 25 miles from the next farmyard or town I will drive it until I get to where I am going. I don't carry a cell phone.

 

Lets see, the problem has been around for like 14 years. Don't think there will be a recall...lol
Best thing to do is preventive maintenance.
Put your plugs in dry and torque to 28#s.
Your plugs will not blow out then.

 

If this happens and you keep driving, at least pull the fuel injector connector for that cylinder before going on.

 

Ohhhh, be careful with that statement. That's a great preventative step and the proper way to do it, but it is not a cure nor a guarantee.

 

In reply to the thread is there any auto parts places that sell the needed spark plug socket? I would like to buy one aftermarket.