My buddy's wife ran across somebody trying to steal my dad's F-150 from their driveway while they were borrowing it. The guy ran around the corner where another guy in a pickup was waiting for him. They hadn't gotten anywhere yet, and hadn't set off the alarm (Clifford). It's too bad is wasn't my buddy that found them, he's always armed to the teeth and would have ended their miserable life. I'm not sure if they were after the whole truck or just the CD player (clarion).

What is the best alarm to go with in one of these new Ford trucks? I have the keyless entry, so I was debating on going with an alarm from Ford made to work with the keyless entry system. Is this a dumb idea? or something worth considering. I did the keypad mod, and it would be nice if everything worked together (like keypad shut off alarm). I've previously used DEI, Clifford, and Avital.

The dealer actually already wired in an alarm while it was on their lot, but it wasn't hidden very well, and they wanted $450 for it at signing. I had them pull it out. They left all the wiring in there, but unfortunately I don't know what brand it was. I'm thinking I can do the install myself, as I've done a few in the past. Is there a place to hide the brain behind the instrument panel? Or can I put the brain under the large panel in the top of the dash?

Thanks,

Mitch

 

What year F150 is it?? If it is 97 or later, it will have the PATS on it (chip in the key), so they most likely aren't going to steal the entire truck unless they tow it or have a key. Most likely they were after the radio and whatever other goodies they could find. I have never been a real big alarm fan. I know for a fact that 99.9999999% of the time when a car alarm is heard, most people just blow it off. The ONLY reason I would even consider an alarm, would be for an ignition disable function, and we have that already. I am a police officer, we get a list of stolen cars in the city everyday, rarely ever do I see a newer F-series on there, and then there is a known suspect who had a key, ex spouse, or someone who borrowed the truck. I just keep my Lightning, and all my vehicles locked ALL the time and keep things out of sight inside. Most of our problems with vehicles are vehicle burglaries, people break in to steal stuff inside, not the vehicle itself.
Unless you have any 80's GM model, some Saturn's, many Dodge/Chrysler's, older Toyota's, your car is not very easily hot wired and stolen.

 

I'm not a huge fan of the noisy alarm, but it will alert me (and my Glock) that somebody is messing with my truck. In Arizona it's legal to use deadly force to prevent Grand Theft Auto, as well as 6 other felonies.

I have a detachable face on the CD player, and I always remove it. I try to keep things out of site, and usually do.

As far as stealing the whole truck goes: it's a lease, and I'm way over on my milage thusfar (I'm at 11K in 6 months, allowed 36K over 3 years). If they want to steal the whole truck, that's fine with me, I'll go get another one tomorrow. My concern is some *sshole who breaks in, messes everything up, and steals the stereo, etc. This would cost me more money than them stealing the whole thing.

Mitch

 

Insurance will pay for break-ins under your comprehensive coverage & your rates aren't effected. Some one broke into my tool box & broke out a window, but I have the factory alarm which I guess scared them off (didn't get anything).

 

There's still the $500 deductible and the down time while it's getting fixed...

 

I'd like to see this statute. I live in Arizona as well, and I think you're wrong. You'd pay a pretty stiff penalty if you are.

Think about it.... you can legally use deadly force to prevent grand theft auto?

Thiefs are scumbags, but to blow someone away for trying to steal your car is a little much. Now a car jacking, that's another story.

 

I'd be suprised if deadly force is legal to prevent a PROPERTY crime also. Here in Florida, deadly force is only legal to prevent violent felonies against people, NOT property. Many states are different, but I would definately check with the local PD before "Glock'fying" someone, just to make sure you don't get charged with manslaughter/homicide over a vehicle.

 

From http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/title13.htm

13-408. Justification; use of physical force in defense of property

A person is justified in using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it necessary to prevent what a reasonable person would believe is an attempt or commission by the other person of theft or criminal damage involving tangible movable property under his possession or control, but such person may use deadly physical force under these circumstances as provided in sections 13-405, 13-406 and 13-411.

13-411. Justification; use of force in crime prevention

A. A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's commission of arson of an occupied structure under section 13-1704, burglary in the second or first degree under section 13-1507 or 13-1508, kidnapping under section 13-1304, manslaughter under section 13-1103, second or first degree murder under section 13-1104 or 13-1105, sexual conduct with a minor under section 13-1405, sexual assault under section 13-1406, child molestation under section 13-1410, armed robbery under section 13-1904, or aggravated assault under section 13-1204, subsection A, paragraphs 1 and 2.

B. There is no duty to retreat before threatening or using deadly physical force justified by subsection A of this section.

C. A person is presumed to be acting reasonably for the purposes of this section if he is acting to prevent the commission of any of the offenses listed in subsection A of this section.

Check out 13-401 thru 13-417 for the details of justification of force.

They are very specific on the law when you take the 16 hour CCW class, as they don't want you blowing away every *sshole you see. Another point, once the crime has been completed (ie. bad guy is driving away in your F-150, or running away from your home with the TV) the crime is completed, and you can't do anything, as you would be considered a vigilante.

I carry a Glock 27 and a cell phone. I'd much rather use the Glock to detain the bad guy, and call the PD on the cell phone, than use deadly force to stop him. If detaining him with the Glock doesn't work, and he attempts any retaliation, you're damn right I'm going to use it.

Mitch

 

Damn! I WISH it were like that in NY.

 

Bronco

I have done the keypad mod and I have the crappy dealer alarm they installed. I left it because it does disarm with the keypad. During my remote start install, I was able to upgrade to the new remote start remotes and still keep the door keypad disarming the alarm. The dealer installed alarm stayed installed as is except for 1 minor modification- a relay to the disarm wire. The box was a no name box, but I believe it may be a code alarm, model 40 or somthing like that (sorry I forgot the exact model- its on the code alarm website as a dealer upgrade).
The other thought I had was to use the unlock wire of one of the door motors to hardwire into a remote for the new alarm. Door unlock pulse from the door keypad triggers relay added to alarm remote hidden under the dash turns off new aftermarket alarm. Very messy, but with some trial and error it would work. Have to figure out how to keep normal unlocks from the button from trying to disarm the alarm when its disarmed. Maybe the grounded when armed output from the alarm ( normally used for starter disable) to one side of the relay to the remotes, positive on unlock from a door motor to the other side.
I have way too much time on my hands here, but where theres a will theres a way.

 

I'm not pretending to be a lawyer, however, 13-408 states "but such person may use deadly physical force under these circumstances as provided in sections 13-405, 13-406 and 13-411".

Statute 13-405 states:

13-405. Justification; use of deadly physical force

A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:

1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and

2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.

Statute 13-406 states:

13-406. Justification; defense of a third person

A person is justified in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force against another to protect a third person if:

1. Under the circumstances as a reasonable person would believe them to be, such person would be justified under section 13-404 or 13-405 in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force to protect himself against the unlawful physical force or deadly physical force a reasonable person would believe is threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

2. A reasonable person would believe that such person's intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

I read this as you MUST be protecting yourself (or another), not property before you can use deadly force.

Until some Judge or other reputable source posts otherwise, I'm sticking by my original post, that it is NOT legal to use deadly force against someone that is trying to steal your car.

 

Well MarkY,

It looks like your mind is made up, and I'm sure when the time comes we'll see who is right.

Anyways, SoCAlSCrew - thanks for the answer to my question. I'll probably ask my bud in the stereo install business if he can hook me up with some info and a decent system.

Mitch

 

OK, I read that a couple of times, and I think I am right. There is a BIG difference between use of PHYSICAL force and DEADLY force. MarkY is right, AZ laws seem to be about the same as FL laws regarding deadly force. I would be VERY careful using the Glock. You may want to take the class so the laws are explained to you. I'm not trying to be mean, I just would hate to see anyone get arrested.
Most states justify deadly force for protection of great bodily harm or death to a PERSON, but do not cover property crimes. The only remote property related crime is burglary, where someone is IN your house, and the homeowner is in fear.
But after reading what you posted closely, you'd be arrested I'm almost positive. Don't rely on the Glock as a car alarm. I have 4 Glocks, I wish it were that easy, we wouldn't have crime problems like we do if we could use them!!!!!!

I'd talk to someone in the alarm business. They are always coming out with new stuff. They would know what would best suit your needs.

 

It sounds like you're trying to make this arguement personal, I'm just trying to present the facts.

I hope that the time NEVER comes when we'll see who is right. Consider the difference in consequences. If I'm wrong, I'm out a truck, big deal, I have insurance. If you're wrong, you might have a truck, but it will be parked for a long time.

One more thing. I was reading the "Arizona Gun Owners Guide" and in this book it states:

You can't kill to protect your property, but you can threaten to protect it.
You or someone acting for you is justified in threatening to use deadly physical force in order to stop someone from criminally trespassing on your land or premises. Using deadly physical force is not justified unless you are actually defending your life, the life of a third person, or if one of the crimes listed under "Crime Prevention" is being committed.

It further states that the penalty for Grand Theft Auto is jail, NOT death.

 

Slapshot,

I'm thinking your and MarkY's interpretations are correct. In all reality, I'm not going to blast somebody for messing with or stealing the truck. In an ideal situation, the threat of deadly force will make the bad guy behave while the police are called. The confrentation comes when the bad guy decides on fight or flight when threatened with deadly force to prevent the crime. If he choses flight, then he is welcome to run away. If he chooses to fight, he gets shot, thus making this lawful under the self defense clause.

If I were to come up behind the would be thief and double tap him in the back of the head, you're right, I'd go to jail.

I completed the CCW class about 2 years ago. I recently reviewed the legal section of the course manual.

My other concern is the firearm I keep in the truck. If the thief has violated the truck, I feel that I can safely assume that he has stolen my gun from the truck, thus making it my duty to defend myself from deadly force.

MarkY,

It's not that I'm trying to make it a personal arguement, and I commend you for doing some research. Your last post doesn't totally make sense. You state the following:

You can't kill to protect your property, but you can threaten to protect it.

You or someone acting for you is justified in threatening to use deadly physical force in order to stop someone from criminally trespassing on your land or premises. Using deadly physical force is not justified unless you are actually defending your life, the life of a third person, or if one of the crimes listed under "Crime Prevention" is being committed.

One of the crimes listed in 13-411 is burglery, which is protecting property:

A. A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's commission of (trim) burglary in the second or first degree under section 13-1507 or 13-1508

C. A person is presumed to be acting reasonably for the purposes of this section if he is acting to prevent the commission of any of the offenses listed in subsection A of this section.

Here is 13-1507:

13-1507. Burglary in the second degree; classification

A. A person commits burglary in the second degree by entering or remaining unlawfully in or on a residential structure with the intent to commit any theft or any felony therein.

B. Burglary in the second degree is a class 3 felony.

I interpret this as saying that using deadly force to protect property in your residence (including the garage) is legal. 13-1508 takes it a bit further, so long as the criminal had any sort of dangerous object, your fenced yard is protectable.

13-1508. Burglary in the first degree; classification

A. A person commits burglary in the first degree if such person or an accomplice violates the provisions of either section 13-1506 or 13-1507 and knowingly possesses explosives, a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument in the course of committing any theft or any felony.

B. Burglary in the first degree of a nonresidential structure or a fenced commercial or residential yard is a class 3 felony. It is a class 2 felony if committed in a residential structure.

There seems to be a lot of leeway in the law. Preventing the crime of Burglery in the second or first degree is protecting property. I read it as saying that if your truck is parked in your garage, you can indeed protect it from theft with whatever force is necessary. Furthermore, if the criminal is armed with any "dangerous instrument" then you are permitted to use whatever force in your fenced yard.

As for this statement:
It further states that the penalty for Grand Theft Auto is jail, NOT death.
I'd like to read that passage. I'll try to find a copy of the book.

Mitch