I can't believe all the whining. It's not good enough to have a Lightning? No, you don't want anybody else having one or something similar. I don't get it. I would be happy if I had one. I wouldn't care if everyone in the neighborhood had I as long as I did. If you guys want something limited, unique, one-of-a kind, then don't buy something they make 5000 of a year.

tallimeca,
What rip-off dealer did you buy your L from? My 2000 F150 regular cab shortbed with a 5.4 was $22,000. A Lightning is $32,000. Hardly anywhere near "almost twice as much".

To have a Lightning, and still not be happy.

 

I hate to break it to you SVT guys but... Perception of exclusivity aside, Ls are not collector's items. It is a mass produced (although relatively less so) consumer durable good, priced within reach of a vast number of people. Virtually every component is ordinary, off-the-shelf, and not custom-made. Fer crying outloud, you can get crate L engines and stick'em wherever. It's kind of like buying a "collector's edition DVD" of a movie -- something they mass produce in millions, and is simply a thin excuse to charge more for a bit more content.

Whatever aura of specialness and exclusivity that surrounds a L is entirely of its owner's manufacture. I undertand that Ls have the HP and performance to back up the specialness. But then, if you slap on a blower on a lot of vehicle, it'll pump out a lot of horses too.

You can have a relatively cheap, fast mass-produced truck assembled with mostly off-the shelf component. Or you can have a truely special, limited production (not simply "relatively limited") collector's items that are priced accordingly. You can rarely, if ever, have both.

 

so why should ford thin out their supercharged line for f150's. Their F150 SVT Sales are going to drop off the face of the earth with this new HD model. To be honest with you, i went to the dealer for a 250 super duty extended cab. Left with a L, which I always admired. If the HD's on the lot were set up like the 2002's, i would have traded 40 hp for the extended cab and left with the HD. Ton's of guys who come into my shop ask about my L, but they all said they wanted one but couldn't because they didn't come with extended cab. No one is trying to say a Lightning is a collectors item....this is more of a ford thing. People are just not happy with ford taking a lightning, adding an extended cab , different interior and paint, and calling it another model. It takes away from their SVT idea. I like both trucks. I think ford could have made out better with this idea. Making the HD's thier SVT model for 2002-2004. They should make the 2002 L, especially with that blue color. That new Harley color is awesome. Reintroduce the L in 2005 with new engine and body style. I think it would cut down on all these SVT vehicles still sitting on the lots. The dealer I bought my L from had HD's sitting on the lot and they were trying to give them away.

 

I just have to justify some stuff and make some points here.
SpoonDog_SVT, 12000 Harleys is limited production in comparison to the tons and tons of total trucks that ford sells. The number of 2002 harleys to survive in 20 years will be alot less since it has the s/c because people will beat them to **** and race em, like the L's. Also. the harleys do have the L suspenions, but they are lowered an inch or so. We also have the shocks i believe, and we have the driveshaft, and muffler. As far as styling goes, it's 100% harley, not a single piece unique to the L is used on the HD. the exhaust tips are different, the RIMS are obviously different, the whole interior unique to harley, the pinstripes, the grill is all harley, and so are the headlights. The L's may have been the first to get the clear lights, but now ford is going with clear light lenses on alot of vehicles like the focus, and the jewel headlamps on the superdutys, and the harley clear lamps that say harleydavidson f-150 right on them. they even look somewhat different than the L's. and they also didn't drop the exact L engine and tranny into the HD because then it would be an svt harley, ford is just borrowing parts to make current vehicles better. Like BfB said, you got what you paid for, why be so upset the L is still faster than the HD and most likely will be even alot more powerful in 2003. Just give em some time here.

1meanZ, the V-Rod is not just a Yamaha V-Max rip off with 40 less HP. Harley spent almost 10 years in designing this bike so that it will perform and last. it's got something like 115 hp and can do like 140 mph stock. not too bad for a harley, so don't go knockin the v-rod unless you know a little more about it. and also the Lightning still stands alone in performance with 40 more hp, and being ALOT lighter than the S-crew.

tallimeca, the harleys are unique and they always will stay unique until 2003 when their run ends. Just because the only thing it has in common with the L is the blower, driveshaft and muffler, it doesn't make it a Lightning harley. The HD is still one of the most unique trucks on the road. And the reason almost every vehcile at the sema show were super charged had nothing to do with ford motor company. they were individuals and companies entries. Also i don't think that they had to put the s/c on the harley, i wouldn't want it, too much gas, but it is pretty coool, and with all that weight,, it needs it. and to you saying that majority of the Harley f150 sales are to the sackless guys who were too afraid to buy a bike, screw you pal. i bet a number of L owners have bikes, and a big majority of HD f-150 owners have bikes. for the few of us that don't its due to other problems like money, injuries that don't allow you to ride a bike (like me, i had two back surgeries) and also we like the styling of hte truck so we bought it. Finally practicality. The truck can be used in alot more ways that the bike for people who can't afford a bike, and like the hd design. O yes, the reason ford trucks and harley bikes got together was because ford and harley are both american icons, their centenials are both in 2003, so they decided to get together and do a little something special. No harm done with that.

2000regcab54, i agree with you 100%. i guess they don't want anybody else having a L or something very faintly similar that only shares a couple mechanical parts with them. I don't get what all their whinning is for either.

Finally, i don't think that the svtf150 sales are going to drop off the face of the earth tallimeca, mainly because alot of people don't like the idea of the crew cab as a super fast racer. Also ford didn't just take a lightning, add an extended cab , different interior and paint, and called it another model.Anyway, if they did that its a totally different vehicle anyway. THey started from scratch designing this between ford and harley davidson. If they needed some pieces, like lower suspension, and high flow muffler, there weren't going to design totally new ones, they borrowed them from the L and other vehicles. They spent a long while desiging this truck, and make little changes every year until the alliance ends in 2003. To sum it up, finally, i think that more people would buy the L if it came in an extended cab because as a regular cab, its not very practical,, if you want to take more than one person with you somewhere. Thats why ford only makes 5000 whatever L's a year and thats why they are making 12000 harleys this year. Last year they only made around 8500 and the year before only 7500. The HD's are still very limited, and will sell out quickly because of the demand for them. The only feasible reason why a dealer might still have some hd's left is because they must be trying to get an arm and a leg for them. When i got mine, luckily for sticker, some dealers were charging 55,000!!! for it. The L's and HD's are brother trucks, can't we just get along and be happy with what we got? Exremely sorry for the very long post

 

Well, Ford built a car with Yamaha (Taurus SHO cylinder heads) so they might as well build a truck with Harley Davidson (badges and big chrome wheels).

What does Harley Davidson contribute to this vehicle?- The name only (many badges) and some guy from Milwaukee that makes sure the vehicle 'conforms to Harley Davidson's brand image'. Let H-D contribute some engineering expertise to get more power out of the truck then.

The Lightning was developed by a team that makes sure I get excellent performance, handling and looks, among other things, for my money. As a result that team puts a badge on the back of the truck. That means something to me.

What does H-D contribute besides the name on all those badges? You want to put your name on something, then make sure you have a proper stake in it.

The Harley is a gorgeous truck that was in need of a performance boost. I don't fault Ford for wanting to take steps to remedy that. It's just my opinion that if H-D wants some dgree of involvement in the '4 wheeler' business, they should make more of a contribution than name alone. Honda and BMW manage to balance their car and bike businesses quite nicely...

 

That Harley truck is sweet.

 

I wouldn't worry about the HD. SVT probably knows of this and is probably right now working on a new engine to make dust of the HD. I think SVT knows what they are doing, just think if they put the V12 engine that is in the lightning rod into the lightning? 500-550Hp? i dunno. I even heard rumor from a friend of mine who is a ford dealer that SVT might put the Rod into production in 2009. Just don't get overworked about this thats all.

 

Longtime listener, first time caller.

This is not an attack, but a wake-up call. Look at all this whining from one single post. I can't remember whose, and it doesn't matter, I am not attacking him/her.

<<Grrr... I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm seriously bummed out and getting close to pissed-off at this news. Having a Gen2 Lightning was cool and exclusive, but not anymore...

(snip)

I really am bummed... this news just ruined my night

(snip)

I guess maybe it's about time to trade this 'no longer a big deal' truck in for something else, perhaps find a decent Syclone to fix up for myself.

To me, this seriously sucks. I'm really not happy; not happy at all. >>

Go ahead and sell your Lightning. That'll teach that mean old Ford! LOL
Why don't you cut off your nose to spite your face while you're at it?

<<I thought 5000 factory-supercharged F-150's per year was a lot, but after 3 years of production that's only 15,000 Lightnings total. That seems like nothing next to the 17,000 that's apparently going to hit the streets just in 2002 alone. So what happened to the SVT exclusivity? >>

News flash: Ford didn't build these vehicles to be special or to make 5,000 people a year feel like a macho man. Ford built them to make a profit. Ford sunk $2.1 billion into the Windsor, Ontario plant in Jan 1998 solely to enable production of the L motor. If you divide that investment into the 14,000 L's to date (there were only 4,000 in '99, not 5,000), each one cost Ford $150,000. It doesn't take a financial whiz to see that Ford will need to place that basic engine frame in a bunch more vehicles over the next several years in order to make back their money. It's not because Ford or Nasser makes bad decisions, it's because they make good decisions. If you think a S/C HD Supercrew is a bad call, think again. You might not like the styling or the idea, but an auto manufacturer is in the business of selling automobiles, and, ultimately, making money.

Anybody who likes their L because it's something most people don't have, rather than liking it because of what it is - cool and fast - is more concerned about everyone else than themselves. Trying to limit the HD Supercrew is the same thing as trying to make yourself feel like a big man by putting someone else down. Sounds like you folks would be happier in a limited edition Escort than a fast, but commonplace, truck. Don't worry about comparing yourself the next person - there's always someone with more money, or a bigger motor, or a faster car (truck), or a longer arm. Or better looking! ;-)

Think about it the other way: How about if, to make the L extra exclusive, Ford only produced 500 a year, or even 50? And what if all 50 got locked up in a warehouse in Michigan and no-one got to drive them? Would that be extra-cool and exclusive?

If you really care about setting yourself apart, it's ludicrous to think of something there are 5,000 a year of (and rising) as exclusive. The best way to have something exclusive is not to hold everyone else back from it, but to customize your own vehicle to be something unique. It's tough to build a truly fast vehicle, or a truly clean and good-looking one, and that's why the people with the bitchin' rides command respect - not the people who just open their wallets for a semi-uncommon vehicle. That's why there's the phrase "If it were easy, everyone would do it."

One more thought: If L's and S/C Supercrews (HD or not) came out together in 1999, everyone would love them both and nobody would be p!ssing and moaning like a bunch of spoiled 13 year olds who have a neat toy, but instead of playing with it and enjoying it, get mad because the neighbor has one too.

Finally, GM will indeed have a vehicle that will outperform the Lightning in this decade (sooner than that), and it won't be any of those stupid concept vehicles everyone has seen. It will be forced-inducted, intercooled, with a much bigger motor than the L, and will go like hell.

GM and Chrysler aren't stupid. Some of you guys can't understand that, and that's ok. They just can't whip up a competitor to the Lightning on short notice. I bet some of the other older guys on here know what I mean about how slow big companies move and how much bureaucracy has to be gone through.

A good example of is Honda in the SUV market: Honda are no dummies. Right now they're only automaker making money and gaining ground, while everyone else is losing ground. But even Honda got caught with their pants down in the mid 90's: They bet that SUVs wouldn't catch on, so when the SUV craze began, Honda wasn't ready.

Similar thing happened with full-size trucks: Ford proved that a high performance truck was viable. GM got caught with their pants down, but took the cue and started working on their own high-po truck. Too bad they didn't buy rebadged L's to tide them over ;-) But it's not even as simple as building a high-po truck. The truck team would love a Lightning killer, but they can't just do as they please nor spend money they don't have. This means the accountants and money managers need to be convinced that a multi-billion dollar investment is a good gamble. Guess what, folks, at the automakers most accountants and money managers aren't hotrodders and don't understand or relate to hotrodding. They have a hard time understanding why horsepower sells!

And in case anyone wonders, I am not a GM, Chrysler, or Honda employee. I'm just trying to teach whoever will open their eyes/ears that Ford is not evil and GM/Chrysler are not dumb - just slow.

 

Harley356....i didn't say that harley and L owners don't drive bikes, what I said is a large number of buyers of these HD trucks are clowns that want to be bad asses and own a harley, but won't buy a bike, so they buy the truck and get all decked out . I've seen it first hand and it's a scream.

I'm not knocking the truck, like a said before, the truck is sweet, especially the new ones. Like I said before, If the 2002 was on the lot, i would have bought that instead of my L. I like the extended room ideal. My whole gripe is with ford. Like a previous post said, harley should have been more involved, rather than ford.....ok.....i'll rephrase this....
taking a supercrew....dropping a lightning motor in it.....droping in down an inch, putting lightning suspension in it, putting fancy chrome wheels, putting different tips on it, and badging it out with harley stuff. The trucks are very similar in overall idea. Take the best selling pickup and make something special out of it. That's fine with one model.....not with two. And do you seriously think with this new truck that svt f150 sales are not going to drop hard, especially with the economy? The "family man" who wants the power and glitter now has a good excuse to buy a supercharged truck because they can fit the kids on the back. They could never convince the wife why they should by a lightning. I've had my L for a little over 3 months and over a dozen people have said to me.....i'd love to buy one, but it's usless with the family. Or many guys that have L's have other vehicles. With the Harley, all the people that wanted a L, but didnt' buy it because of the regular cab idea, won't give in to the L like I did and will buy the HD. All the people that planned on buying L's but then seen the crew cab supercharged will go with the Harley. I just think the "idea" of building both in the same years was a bad move for an already struggling company. By the way harley....don't drive a lightning....your back won't feel too good when you get pinned to the seat!!! Anyway.....peace all around like you said....we can all get along. Everyone just has their opinion.

 

redlightspecial, harley davidson contributes alot more than the badges. Not as involved as ford, being that it is a ford truck, but ford basically designed the truck, and harley approved, and made changes to it. i beleive harley helped design the rims, and on the 2002, willie g, the head honcho of harley, did the flame stitching on the console, and cut out the flamed pinstriping. Harley davidson also tuned the exhaust note, and other stuff i can't remember right now. So harley davidson does have a proper stake in it, and harleys are bikes not cars, hondas are cheap pieces of crap bikes, and ok cars, and bmw are just plain expensive. Its a special edition truck people! just because its co-branded doesn't mean harley should have to make cars to be part of the alliance.

and lamb332002, i agree that svt will probably work up the L. but some of you people are putting ford's against ford's. come on guys, ford can only make improvments on so many vehicles at a time. this year the harleys get a blower, who knows, next year you guys might get that freaking v-12 monster lamb was talkin bout, so don't worry so much about being king of the drag strip.

And to the people mud pup was qouting, the gen. 2 lightning is still cool and exclusive, I don't know what this guy was thinking. Mud pup seems to be one of the only ones on here that figured out why ford's putting the s/c on more models. PROFIT. and i agree with you 100% with saying that "Trying to limit the HD Supercrew is the same thing as trying to make yourself feel like a big man by putting someone else down."

 

tallimecca, when you said that a "large number of buyers of these HD trucks are clowns that want to be bad asses and own a harley, but won't buy a bike, so they buy the truck and get all decked out" that can be taken as an insult, so watch what your saying, don't turn this post into a harley vs lightning thread. secondly, it wouldn't make any sense for harley to be more involved that ford on this project cus it on a FORD TRUCK. if it was a ford edition harley motorcycle, would you want ford to be involved more than harley?? Also this truck is NOT a L wanna be. it may have the motor, with less power, but that is only on the 2002 model. and they are not similar in overall idea. the L is for fast racing, etc. the hd is for comfortable cruising and showing off, the s/c on the crew cab probably doesn't do all that much with all that weight and for adults inside. and you must have been smoking something when you said that it was okay to make something special out of one model but not with two. wtf have you been doing the last hundred years. What do you think that ford is only going to make one limited production truck to make you L owners happy . Your happiness isn't ford's primary concern. they want to make a PROFIT. can you spell it? P-R-O-F-I-T. they aren't going to spend all that money into the developemen of the blown 5.4L engine and just produce 5000 a year. They'll lose money. Next, all vehicle sales will probably drop, but the peopel who have money to spend on a L or HD are still out there and they will probably still buy them. The s/c harley won't hurt the L all that much cuz alot of people dont' like the idea of a s/c crew cab. Doesn't make much sense. too much gas. i personally don't like the concept of a s/c crew cab either, but there seems to be a demand for it. and if they only make 5000 L's a year, even with them not being the most practical vehicle. there are plenty of wealty people to buy two vehicle, or people without kids, or single guys that want one and willl buy the L. But i wouldn't be at all suprised if svt came out with the extended cab as well. but that would probably upset you guys too cuz that would mean more L to be produced. the way yous are thinking, if ford did what you wanted and only make under 5000 L's a year, they might as well shut down production becaue not enought profit from it. So come on people, try and see things from ford's perspective, its unrealistic to make 500 L's a year and not use the s/c or any other L components on anything else. The HD doesn't even perform like the L or look like it so can we just get along and be realistic about this.

 

From Harley#356,
redlightspecial, harley davidson contributes alot more than the badges. Not as involved as ford, being that it is a ford truck, but ford basically designed the truck, and harley approved, and made changes to it. i beleive harley helped design the rims, and on the 2002, willie g, the head honcho of harley, did the flame stitching on the console, and cut out the flamed pinstriping. Harley davidson also tuned the exhaust note, and other stuff i can't remember right now.

With the exception of the exhaust note, just more appearance items. A prestigeous company such as Harley Davidson, with a rich history that dates back almost 100 years should be capable of so much more.

 

Mudpup-

<This is not an attack, but a wake-up call. Look at all this whining from one single post. I can't remember whose, and it doesn't matter, I am not attacking him/her. >

<Go ahead and sell your Lightning. That'll teach that mean old Ford! LOL
Why don't you cut off your nose to spite your face while you're at it?>

I dunno, that statement sounds like an attack to me, or maybe it just hit too close to home. Like I said before, my statements are representative of my feelings and opinions. Your statements are indicative of your feelings and opinions. If you find my comments whiney and childish, so be it.

I have the same self-conversation running through my head - e.g. "It's just a damn truck, get over it!" and "Why does this mean so much to you, it's not a big deal." Different people have different obsessions, and this just happens to be my obsession of the week.

So how is selling my truck akin to cutting off my nose? If I do sell my Lightning, it will be my decision to do so for whatever reason makes sense to me. It's true that Ford already has my money so they're not going to care one whit about one measly owner, but that doesn't mean I have to keep driving something that causes me displeasure.

Anyway, thank you to the rest who have shed further light on the whole topic, especually the PROFIT part. Also to clarify, I have never spoken ill of the HD F-150; I am actually impressed with it's fit and finish, and it is a cool truck on its own merits. I just don't like to see the HD getting the Lightning engine without seeing the Lighting getting a better one simultaneously. If the Lightning is to get an even better powerplant in the near future, I would love to know.

Harley#356 - touche on the numbers, lights and styling cues, but I find it hard to believe that Ford isn't just using the Lightning engine with a tuned-down PCM program in the 2002 HD's.

To put things into perspective, I haven't sold or even listed my Lightning yet. I am getting over this in my own way and on my own timeline. I will probably keep the truck, but this has fueled my need to get absolutely the most power out of my truck as I can, just in case...

Flame on, I'm done with this particular discussion.

~rick

 

Checking out the thread, just a few thoughts...

Bill Murray....my bride saw the 2001 HD SCrew at Sturgis last year...I'm a used car guy, anything over a grand is too much to pay for a cage, but...she didn't want a new scooter. The dealer (#1) took our deposit, not having any information on the truck, but she wanted one. When it came time to order, he ordered one without consulting us, then tried to gouge us on the cost, like 2K over MSRP....YOU'RE FIRED!! Next dealer gave us the truck at 1% over invoice, including add ons such as bed cover and Line-X.
The dealer didn't have any info at all until after the first of the year.

1MEANZ...I'm an old gotta smell the burning oil and hot metal type. The V-ROD looks OK, but some nouveau rich yuppie will get one 'cause it's a Harley. Personally, I'd take the 19K, go to Italy, pick up a Monster Duc, cruise around Europe for a month and ship it back for the same price. Yea, them V-twins are old technology, but, they're Harley.

Tallimeca...you'll never see a Harley Camaro...no one in the trailer park where I live could afford one, seein's as everyone around here has some sort of old camaro....

I saw the 2002 HD SCrew and felt a bit of anger, too. Another year with the same body style. Oh well, life goes on....I coulda waited a year, or ride now. Ford is out to make a buck, and they'll do it any way they can. There is no loyalty once you buy the ride..they have you hook, line, sinker.

Maybe it's time to flood Ford's E-mail with dissenting opinions......

 

redlightspecial, what else besides the exhaust note, side emblems, rims, owner emblem, and interior, would you consider more of appearance items?

SpoonDog_SVT, cant understand why you would say driving your L causes you displeasure. And it would be too much on Fords part to upgrade the HD and L at the same exact time, you have to wait your turn. Last year you guys got 20 more hp, and this year the HD's get a blower. Who knows what you'll get nextyear. nobody knew about the HD being s/c for 2002. Why would ford tell anybody what they are doing for the L in 2003.