Rich,
Are you saying you think a dry system would be the way to go? That's what I'm getting from the picture.

I won't disagree but you would have to invest in a full standalone computer so you could fit bigger injectors and change the duty cycle for on/off nitrous. Not to mention the tuning involved. All companies including ourselves have developed a bolt-on kit with minimal to no upgrades unless you want big power gains. If you just add a dry kit to a stock motor than you are very limited as the factory injectors can only support so much extra power. Not to mention that any current dry kit is crap at the moment. I know Trev is working on something in the form of a dry kit but when it's released could be a year or more.

 

I reckon a "dry kit" is what I'm thinking would be *ideal* for a "bolt on" lightning using a stock motor. Could this be accomplished with just bigger injectors (our stock ones are able to keep up quite a bit) and a dyno tune where the nitrous does'nt come on til WOT?

Keep in mind I very well may not go that route as cost is a big factor in my case. (got too many irons in the fire as is)

I'm just awfully concerned that the IC will remove a % of fuel when injected upstream. I suppose that could be over come by just adding more to compensate? But then how is cylinder to cylinder distribution addressed? I suspect that on all the current systems it's just not addressed?

Later tonight, Rich

 

the "strainer"

 

Rich,
I can see your concern. If you read the link to the thread I posted about why Zex is crap, this will explain the current dilema with dry kits as NOS is no better. A dry kit will be fine for small power levels when we come up with a stabil and reliable system which yet has not been created.

I have no idea how much the factory injectors can support. Keep in mind that factory injectors are not real reliable at high duty cycles and can stick or flutter. Increasing the fuel pressure only ads more wear on an injector that is not designed for this also. So now for reliability you should fit better injectors which ads to the cost of a kit. If you want enough power, bigger injectors with an aftermarket computer needs to be fitted. See where I'm going with this? A lot of extra cost and tuning. We don't disagree with you, but there are limits and negatives to everything.

Like Sal has noted there were distribution problems at a certain point with a single point injector. So now direct port needs to be fitted in these applications. If you can only get 50-100 hp with a single point on your set-up than this is just the way it is. Distribution may not be optimal but I doubt it's crucial enough to be worried.

I'll see what Trev's input is on the picture. He is the wizard of nos and I'm only the apprentice in learning.

Fast gator, thanks for the image.

 

See the above color coded pictures (air flow path)

OK that's cool. I spent a few years in powertrain and the greater the thermocycles the shorter the life. I guess if a guys wants to "play"? He's gotta "pay".


What I'm interested in.... is how long those setups lasted? I guess we simply don't know?


I had not thought about the length of time vs velocity to cool the charge. Excellent point. I'd buy that hook line and sinker on a NA application. Got any data on a positive displacement S/C setup?


I guess to sum it up, I do NOT have a built motor and at this time am only looking to push 14-16 psi and run maybe a 75 shot at most towards the end of the season. (in case it blows) So for now I'll sit back and watch how things unfold.

Respectfully, Rich

 

Rich,
I have some more answers to your questions, but first I will say that I don't think nitrous is for you. You have to many doubts and lack of confidence in nitrous to have piece of mind or be satisfied with it at this time. This goes for anyhting. If a person really doesn't feel confident in something then you're better off staying away from it because no matter how many answers you get you'll never be happy.

_
First I see no problem with modest power increases as the inlet temps will still be positive and only have minimal effect on the temp of the s/c body. Second the use of nitrous is for such short time periods that there will not be enough time to transfer the effects of a drop in temp to the s/c body. It's a bit like if you "quickly" touch something hot or cold you don't get a burn but if you had contact for minutes you'd be on fire. Also why are you not worried about thermocylces with the rest of your motor as the s/c rotors are just metal like many other parts? I don't even see what could go wrong as the rotors are just lumps of metal spinning? A bearing would go out long before the metal body itself has any problems.

They lasted!!!! We've never seen ANY kind of component fail due to the temperature drop of nitrous and as regards cycles. Even if you use it once a minute for 10 seconds and till you empty the bottle (a couple of minutes), it's still hardly qualifies to be called a "cycle"


I still don't see how a NA or s/c application would be different on this issue and we have been testing and developing for a few decades now?

 

We do have an alternative for guys like Rich, but we'll save this idea for the tuners that we work with and do some testing first.

 

LOL... You don't spend much time around engineers do you? Seems you have mis-interpreted my many questions for "feelings". That's ok.. I'm used to it.

In OEM engineering we beat subjects to absolute death trying to fully understand EVERYTHING before moving fwd. Or at least when we are allowed too.
Please don't misunderstand my wanting to learn great depths of this subject for me being faint of heart. I will have a nitrous kit installed by the end of the season. And fully expect to see 11s. I just want to use the best setup I can given a balance of quality, value, and longevity.


That pretty much answers my question. I was under the impression that nitrous when released was extreamly cold. But after thinking about the heat transfer from the rotors, it would not be that great during a typical 1/4 mile run. I think?

Along the same lines something that occurs to me is that the colder air charge going into the rotors will make for more density.

Is it normal for psi to rise on a blown application? How much on say 14psi?



Keep in mind I've only been trying to understand this for a very short time. I'm sure decades of knowledge will help me to understand more as I research this.

Thanks for all your input, Rich

 

Rich,
I'm glad you weren't offended as I wasn' trying to do that. I'm sure you can relate as an engineer that we spend the time stressing and developing the products. So when I get to many detailed questions I feel like saying "I just spent hundreds if not thousands of hours making sure we give you the best so please just trust us as I'm tired now". LOL

You are correct that the boost will rise about 1-2 psi from the denser charge. That's why I say to turn down your boost when using nitrous. Trev had a retailer setting up a kit on a turbo car. They couldn't make much power with nitrous on top of the high boost becuase of detonation, etc. He said turn the boost down and run more nitrous. The car with a small motor gained 25+ hp and 30+ lbs of torque by doing this. Remember, boost creates heat and is less dense than a cool nitrous charge. The extra heat from added boost will also bring you closer to detonation unlike nitrous also.

Yes, nitrous is only used at WOT so the intake charge is coming an leaving at great speeds. This is why the cool charge from nitrous will not have time to change the temp of anything but air.

 

I get it.

Ok so now lets see your setup on a Gen 2 lightning Even better would be some back to back dyno pulls. I think that would sway quite a number of buyers.

Rich

 

Why would he ever want to replace a ford EEC-V with a standalone computer that has less power and fewer capabilities?

An EEC-V, tuned properly, can hnadle that and more.

 

It's clear Denny knows nitrous setup. Just not the 5.4L S/C motors as of yet.

I am ignorant about what it would take to tune one with a dry system like I have pictured above. I'd guess a new fuel pump and injectors? And other than the nitrous injection piont, all the hardware needed is already there to support it. They may need upgrading for elevated power level? But everything is there! Would make for easy "plug and play" kits IMO.

THE thing I like the most about it is that each cylinder would recieve the proper amount of fuel. That has to equall a certian amount of safety as well as predictable power.

Rich

 

I have gotten so used to foreign cars that I forget how available aftermarket reburns and plug 'n' play units are for Ford, Chevy, etc.

We have gotten so many good results with a single point injector that distribution wasn't a problem. If so then we would do direct port. The Lightning doesn't look like a good candidate for direct port as far as ease of install goes, so we have another option that we'll share with the tuners and get you guys a better option. This may take a few months as nothing is easy and quick.