Freewill... You just happen to be taking advantage of it... Excellent points.

 

i have been on both sides of this.i have done extensive amount of study on the bible.yes there is alot of difference in the old testiment and the new.if you read you will find there are two ways to worship god.from the old testiment you had to sacrifice one of your best offerings to god as you read there are alot of people who tried god by sacrificing somthing of less value and they were punished.in the new testiment jesus christ was the ultimate sacrifice he came and he died for our sins that we may be saved if we believe,repent of our sins and be baptized.so the difference is that we do not have to sacrifice anymore because jesus is the way now.and if you need anymore proof of is there a god what more do you need when jesus was born of a virgin done many miraculas signs was nearly beat to death and on his way to the cross he asked that god would forgive them for they knew not what they do what kind of person could endure that much torture and still love the ones who persecuted him that my friend is from god and if you need any more proof of is there a god all this was recorded from many different people this is not a fairy tale this happened i am troubled in my mind and in my heart for the people who dont believe.let me give an example say for instance you do believe and you follow the rules and you try not to commit sin and you die and there is no heaven but yet you live a good life you were a good person what have you lost?nothing.lets say you dont believe and you dont care what you do you do as you will and then you die to find there really is a god then what have you lost?everything so think about and study for your self there is alot of information out there

 

I have. In fact, reading the Bible had a lot to do with my becoming agnostic, and eventually atheist. There was just way too many inconsistencies. Some of the more annoying ones include:

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.

GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

GE 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.
HE 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.

GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.

GE 7:1 Noah was righteous.
JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous.
LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.
JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).
1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).
RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.

GE 11:7-9 God sows discord.
PR 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord.

GE 22:1-12, DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.
JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).
1CO 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations.
JA 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one.

GE 27:28 "May God give you ... an abundance of grain and new wine."
DT 7:13 If they follow his commandments, God will bless the fruit of their wine.
PS 104:15 God gives us wine to gladden the heart.
JN 2:1-11 According to the author of John, Jesus' first miracle was turning water to wine.
RO 14:21 It is good to refrain from drinking wine.

EX 3:20-22, DT 20:13-17 God instructs the Israelites to despoil the Egyptians, to plunder their enemies.
EX 20:15, 17, LE 19:13 God prohibits stealing, defrauding, or robbing a neighbor.

EX 12:13 The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from God.

EX 20:5, 34:7, NU 14:18, DT 5:9, IS 14:21-22 Children are to suffer for their parent's sins.
DT 24:16, EZ 18:19-20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.

EX 20:14 God prohibits adultery.
HO 1:2 God instructs Hosea to "take a wife of harlotry."

EX 21:23-25, LE 24:20, DT 19:21 A life for a life, an eye for an eye, etc.
MT 5:38-44, LK 6:27-29 Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies.

EX 23:7 God prohibits the killing of the innocent.
NU 31:17-18, DT 7:2, JS 6:21-27, 7:19-26, 8:22-25, 10:20, 40, 11:8-15, 20, JG 11:30-39, 21:10-12, 1SA 15:3 God orders or approves the complete extermination of groups of people which include innocent women and/or children.

EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.
NU 14:30 God breaks his promise.
1KI 22:21-23 God condones a spirit of deception.
2TH 2:11-12 God deludes people, making them believe what is false, so as to be able to condemn them.

EX 34:6-7, HE 9:27 God remembers sin, even when it has been forgiven.
JE 31:34 God does not remember sin when it has been forgiven.

DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21 God is sometimes angry.
MT 5:22 Anger is a sin.

DT 7:9-10 God destroys his enemies.
MT 5:39-44 Do not resist your enemies. Love them.

DT 30:11-20 It is possible to keep the law.
RO 3:20-23 It is not possible to keep the law.

1SA 17:50 David killed Goliath with a slingshot.
1SA 17:51 David killed Goliath with a sword.

PR 3:13, 4:7, 19:8, JA 1:5 Happy is the man who finds wisdom. Get wisdom.
LK 2:40, 52 Jesus was filled with wisdom and found favor with God.
1CO 1:19-25, 3:18-20 Wisdom is foolishness.

PR 26:4 Do not answer a fool. To do so makes you foolish too.
PR 26:5 Answer a fool. If you don't, he will think himself wise.

MT 1:16 Jacob was Joseph's father.
LK 3:23 Heli was Joseph's father.

MT 1:17 There were twenty-eight generations from David to Jesus.
LK 3:23-38 There were forty-three.

MT 5:16 Good works should be seen.
MT 6:1-4 They should be kept secret.

MT 5:17-19, LK 16:17 Jesus did not come to abolish the law.
EP 2:13-15, HE 7:18-19 Jesus did abolish the law.

 

^^^ You think you know the Bible? Nice job taking them out of context, and twisting them.

Very weak argument for those who have read Gods word, and a very strong argument to the simple minded grasping for straws.

If I thought that posting a dissenting view to everyone of the verses would do you any good, I would hop on a plane. Sit down with you at a Starbucks, and go through each one. Line by line. But then that would be waste of my time, would it not?

 

Awww, c'mon Shines. One of the following must be applicable in this instance

PR 26:4 Do not answer a fool. To do so makes you foolish too.
PR 26:5 Answer a fool. If you don't, he will think himself wise.

 

Both of my parents are ordained ministers (they met in seminary at Drew University), I grew up reading the Bible. I am not grasping at straws. Who was Joseph's father? With what weapon did David kill Goliath? Which was created first, animals or man? Was eve created from Adams rib or were they created at the same time? How many generations were there from David to Jesus? Start with those, and we'll go from there.

 

He loves them, but if a baby dies before it is baptised, then it is going straight to hell ?? Thats some "tough love" for you. Good is doing the "right thing"

Again, we have talked about this and similar issues. You know this isn't true.

But I forgot, maybe you were granted the right to judge ? You seem to do it plenty.




(click the link in my sig, Shines. You'll get a kick outta it)

 

This has been answered. The baby goes to heaven. It does not know sin, and is incapable of sin.

The Truth? Rejecting the Holy Spirit is the ONLY unpardonable sin. That is Truth.

You remembering when you did it... that is my opinion.

I am granted the right to judge by their fruits, and I will be judged by that which I judge.

 

Happens all the time… :o Let me rephrase by subject.


Prayer:
Yes and no. If we’re created by God, then our hopes, wishes, dreams and wants are as well. Asking for God to fulfill those things then might become part of the plan, not a hindrance or a desire to change it. That being said, not all of our wishes and desires are necessarily God’s will, but that’s a side subject.

I think you might be putting too much emphasis on the belief that there is some huge divine plan or checklist the God is running through until we finally get to step #59442vL and the game stops. Maybe God’s whole plan is to make a bunch of little squirts and have then fun playing with them; if I were a supremely powerful divine being, I’d be spending much more time finding ways to enjoy myself than slavishly making lists to follow.


Things Not in the Bible:
Methinks God does whatever he damn well pleases – it’s one of the perks of being God. As for the “divine intervention” bit, it seems as though you’re asking for miraculous proof of God’s existence. One huge problem with asking for miraculous signs before believing in God is that it sort of lessens or eliminates the whole “faith” bit. The other problem is far more insidious.

I’m sure you’ve seen some magic tricks; in the proper light, those could easily become “miracles”. Another way to look at it is related to Clarke’s famous “law”, that “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” The reverse of that law is also true; any miracle/magic can be explained away using sufficiently advanced reasoning. You or I may not be able to explain it, but an explanation is almost sure to exist.

Bottom line, no miracle will ever prove that God exists; only meeting him face to face would do that. In that light, why would God waste his time “proving” his existence with miracles? Even if dinosaurs were described in detail in the Bible, they could be explained away by assuming that Moses’ third cousin was a prehistoric paleontologist – so why bother divinely inspiring anybody to write about them?


Bible Written by Man/Religion:
Assume, for the sake of argument, that the Christian god is real and the Bible is his book. It would stand to reason that a god wouldn’t have too many problems ensuring that his book remained reasonably accurate. Basically, belief in god has to come before belief in the Bible’s accuracy. It is a chicken and egg type problem, but I would think that a belief in one’s creator should come before a belief that a book describes religious truth.

As for the perversion of the Bible and/or religion, you and I both have the capacity to reason and make decisions for ourselves. Adhering to a religion does not – and should not – make you a slave to the will of a Pope, Priest, or other Grand PooBah. Presumably those persons are “learned and wise”, and so should be able to answer questions and/or guide you to the truth, but they are not infallible; their word or edict does not free you from the responsibility of making your own decisions. Chastising an entire religion (which is really nothing more than a loose grouping of people with reasonably similar beliefs) because one of their members made some poor decisions strikes me as more than a little silly. Disliking the herd mentality often associated with religion, however, is something that I strongly approve of.


Picking and Choosing the Old Testament:
Yes and no. The problem is that Jesus changed the way sin works, but didn’t give us an updated list of commandments. This means that the Old Testament is part “ancient history” and part modern guidelines; you have to read and interpret it to figure out which is which. If someone says they follow the New Testament but not the Old, they generally mean that they follow the New’s guide to salvation and the Old’s principles of morality. There isn’t necessarily any hypocrisy there – but, admittedly, there is a large amount of potential for it.

--- Continued ---

 

Good People Going to Hell:

The Bible says that God made man in his own image. If that’s true, it doesn’t have much (if anything) to do with two eyes, freckles, and smelly feet. Instead, it means that what we essentially “are”, namely our minds, thoughts, and emotions, are images of God’s – including our sense of justice. A retard can’t follow the tenets of the Bible any more than the savages from darkest Africa could; if you and I can see the injustice of blithely throwing them into hell for being born the wrong way, I think God can as well.

That being said, the "but what about X potentially good people" argument generally leads to the assumption that leading a “good life” is, strictly speaking, good enough to get into heaven. Paying your taxes on time, giving to charity, and refraining from murdering your annoying neighbors might make you “good”, but it might not be sufficient if you had the capability of being better. I’m not God, so I can’t say what will and will not get you into heaven, but I believe the Bible does say that everyone will be judged individually. The question then becomes not whether you were “good” in an absolute or average sense, but were you as good as you could have been; did you fulfill your potential for “goodness”?



@PRKWUD:
Finding apparent contradictions in any book, especially books like the Bible, is incredibly easy if you take things out of context and/or fail to interpret what is being said correctly. Just glancing at your laundry list, I see plenty of "contradictions" that are, to be blunt, incredibly inane on your part (and I'm not even close to being a Bible scholar.) A long list of lousy arguments isn't impressive- if you want to choose a single good one, we can move forward.

 

I do believe PKRWUD has demonstrated some major "ownage" on the issue at hand.

He lists over 30+ bible contradictions, in plain English, in the open for everyone to see.
Did he make those contradictions up?
No
Is he lying?
No
What exactly is he twisting?
Shines, I know you take your belief seriously, and I respect that, but on a no bs request, please show just a few examples on how the contradictions PKRWUD showed, is twisted and taken out of context.

I'd sincerely like to hear your side of it.

Thanks
Habibi

 

There was no ownage on the part of PKRWUD. Its like Ghartman said:

"Finding apparent contradictions in any book, especially books like the Bible, is incredibly easy if you take things out of context and/or fail to interpret what is being said correctly. Just glancing at your laundry list, I see plenty of "contradictions" that are, to be blunt, incredibly inane on your part (and I'm not even close to being a Bible scholar.) A long list of lousy arguments isn't impressive- if you want to choose a single good one, we can move forward".

It would be an act of insanity to explain PKRWUD's alleged inconsistencies. Why? It would do absolutely no good to any one. Honestly, it would be a waste of my time, and would accomplish nothing.

If you were to say "Shines, these inconsistencies are holding me back. Show me were I am wrong, because I have a sincere interest in accepting Christ." That would be a different story. I would either fly you to Dallas, or fly to where you were, and start explaining. Answering them in this forum? Sorry, but I am not that bored.

 

Some great posts here guys. ghartman has come in with some great arguments and Shines is back

Here's the thing though. We all know which side of the fence we stand.
We will never convince you and you will never convince us. We can debate the finer points of the Bible, set some traps, be obtuse and argue till the cows come home.
Nobody is going to step up and say "Whoa, hang on, you're correct" at any point in this thread. Hopefully though, we've made people step back and think.

So here's my next question. I know you "believe" (even if I think you are mistaken) but why? What gives you Faith? What makes you want to believe?

 

Does Lillith count?
Some argue the rib was taken from Adam to make Eve so she couldn't run away, like Lillith did?
I would like to hear an educated answer to that. What is there to that story?
Where did it come from? A different tribe maybe.

 

I'll list these again...