You are thinking Western my friend. The people of the middle east do not and have not in thier entire history known or understand peace. You act as if those people over there even understand Democracy or want it. That is where America fails to understand the mind of Islam and Muslims in general.

What do you think is going to happen when there is a real election in Iraq? The minute the American troops are gone and a "free" election happens those people over there are going to vote in one of thier own ****e Muslim Clerics that are 100% more popular then anything we Americans can throw at them. Then you will have another Iran except it is sitting right next to it.

We are repeating history we tried doing this in Iran and it failed in 1979 when the Sha was overthrown. America just has a very short termed memory the only thing we seem to remember are comercial jingles.

Nation building does not work and if memory serves Bush stated he was 100% against nation building in his last election speeches.

 

Great set of posts jvernacchio.

Very true.

Burt, the problem with Bush is that we do know what he is going to do, will not listen to reason or cognate about the results of his already bad decisions.
jvernacchio understands the mentality of that area of the world, Bush does not, and that will be the death of more american troops, in the end for no advancement of the liberty ball, like another south asian conflict we had no business being in.
Ahhh, business thats the ticket.

bigtruck311, welcome back, but sorry man, you have answered all the questions through indoctrinated glasses.

Are we any safer?
No, we are much more danger and so are our troops, your bretheren.

Terrorist ratio, better or worse?
More terrorist recruitment than ever over there.

Saddam had to do with US terrorism how?
Minor. your answer is more applicable to Saudi Arabia than Iraq.

Iraquis are showing their gratitude how?
By killing more and more troops every day, it is escalating.

87 Billion is being spent on what?
Its being squandered and siphoned by Halliburton while your benefits are being cut. The 20 somethings that are heading a lot of the programs are the fortunate children of radical right Heritage Foundation, getting paid 10 time you are and living in 4 star hotels. They get to shower every day.

Iraqui oil has helped our economy how?
Well, I'm paying 50 cents more a gallon for gas since last year, I doubt very seriously that its making its way back to Iraq.

You have to ask yourself: "Who is making these billions?"
Non competitive contractors? yes
Military industrial complex? yes
Soldiers? Nope

 

Now look who's using a large paint brush to catagorize people. You do not say Muslim's do not want peace but it is definately implied. I doubt you can name one person who loves to be at war. Everybody knows that war results in death their own or their families death. No one wants war. The terrorists have a belief system where they have come to think America is the cause of all of their problems and as such the only way to rid themselves of the problem is to rid the world of America. I do not claim to understand the thinking of Muslim's, however the time I spent living among them I realized they are no different then anybody here in Ameerica. They want peace and for their families to be safe.

 

I implied nothing. I did not say anyone loves being at war I am only stating facts. The historical facts are that the middle-east has not seen 50 years of peace at anytime in history. Except during the Persian and Assyrian Empires.

I am a history teacher that is what I do for a living. History is a great teacher but you have to be able to look at things in a balanced unbiased eye. The facts are since Islam began in 633a.d. The waring Tribes/Shieks/Viziers/Clans/ etc etc etc... have been at war with themselves and others the ENTIRE time.

Stating that the people of the middle east dont understand what peace is is a pretty good reflection based on the fact that they are in a constant state of turmoil and war. They war within each tribe they war within each soveriegn state.

Why do you think Saddam Hussien ruled with such an Iron Grip? He had to. We as Americans shudder at his torture and inhumane activities and the mass graves we find but we do not stop to ask why he did things the way he did them. We call him a madman because of his actions but we do not sit back and ask why he did what he did we just cast our own judgements. Saddam had to rule his country without question and with the knowledge that other tribes inside Iraq would not uprise.

I am not saying Saddam was right for the things he did but we sit here in our beautiful safe wonderful country and cast judgement on him for running his own country. We tell him that they should be like us and if not we will bomb you into submission and level your country.

I love my country I fought in a war for my country but right now I think our country has become a monster of fear feeding off of itself and walking in uncharted territory blind deaf and dumb. Our leaders refuse to take a look at history both ancient and recent and that is where it is making its biggest mistakes.

I supported Bush in his war on Afghanistan and Al-Quieda but this war on Iraq was unneccesary and unwarranted. Yes Saddam Hussien was a terrible man and yes he probably needed to be removed but that was IRAQ's issues to deal with.

Who are we to decide on what other countries need or want? When did America become the bully on the block that smashes on the smaller kids when they dont play the game like the bully wants?

Just my worthless 2 cents on the matter...

 

I read bigtruck311's statements and accept them as his opinion without comment. He does not need to be 'corrected' by anyone here. You are out of bounds, loudist.

Until the US reinstitutes the Draft and everyones *** is in the sling, all other opinions are subject to scrutiny, ridicule and comment as necessary.

 

A scary thing I have noticed the last few years is the way Conservatives are now using the word Liberal to characterize people. Conservatives are using the word Liberal the way they we used the word Communist during the 50's. Often to quick to lable someone even if they are moderate in thinking.

I am a middle of the road Democrat on most issues as I think most democrats and just like most Republicans are middle of the road common sense people. We are really the silent majority both Democrats and Republicans wanting many of the same things but disaggreeing on a few issues.

Both Parties want to polarize and capitalize on the few things we disaggree on rather than work together and work out the important issues on common ground. This election period is really quite silly and rediculous if you look at what both parties are trying to push as main issues.

Of course if you are a true Conservative/Liberal then you will find something to disagree with me about and that is ok. What really matters is wether your a middle of the road Democrat or Republican we have more in common then not in common.

 

"Why do you think Saddam Hussien ruled with such an Iron Grip? He had to. We as Americans shudder at his torture and inhumane activities and the mass graves we find but we do not stop to ask why he did things the way he did them. We call him a madman because of his actions but we do not sit back and ask why he did what he did we just cast our own judgements."

When my friend Mazen decided to stay in the US, rather than return to Iraq, and the Iraqi government sent him a videotape of hooded men raping his sister, who later killed herself... Please ask yourself how this can be judged acceptable UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Sorry, but I never asked Mazen if he ever stopped to think about "why" he had to watch his sister get raped.

 

When my friend Mazen decided to stay in the US, rather than return to Iraq, and the Iraqi government sent him a videotape of hooded men raping his sister, who later killed herself... Please ask yourself how this can be judged acceptable UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Sorry, but I never asked Mazen if he ever stopped to think about "why" he had to watch his sister get raped. [/B][/QUOTE]

But it did its purpose correct it kept someone from coming back into Iraq correct? Your friend and his family may have been seen as a problem.

At no point did I say that anything Saddam Hussien has done should be viewed as acceptable. His actions will however give you an inclination as to how that region deals with eachothers enemies.

I am sorry to hear what happened to your friends sister, however it just goes to show you how those same warring tribes/parties/clans deal with oneanother and have been dealing with one another for the last 700 years. It is just new news to most Americans but crimes like this have went on in the middle east for centuries.

 

you make good points, I'm basically a moderate republican and I think there are a lot of people from both parties who are pretty centrist and are not well represented by their parties right now and SOL. IMHO both parties are catering too far their their respective extremes.

 

The thing is, they have never known peace or democracy so who is to say they won't like it?

For the record though I don't believe the ME will ever know peace, I just think if they are kept occupied (and join the ranks of the modernized world) it will reduce the amount of terrorists and make it easier to keep tabs on them.
Not necessarily true. The 2 things with history is we either a) repeat it or b) learn from our mistakes and improve on them. Until this whole deal is over, we cannot say for sure that this course of action is just repeating history.

Whatever the outcome though, it is still a better idea then the 'kill them all' attitude/path. We've seen what happens in history when people try to eliminate a group of people/religion. Again it doesn't work, plus it breeds more enemies, ie Germany in WWII.

Other then that, I agree with most of what you said.

I'd add that they don't realize that is the catagory they are in. I've seen way to many people get caught up in strictly their party line or the anyone but Bush, etc. way of thinking. To many people are just listening/following blindly instead of thinking for themselves.

People really need to start look at other parties so that we move away from this 2 party system.

 

You mis-read my post.

Mazen came to the US as an engineering student. He decided to stay and became a cop.

They called him a thief, despite the fact that he re-imbursed the Iraqi government all tuition and expense money that he had been given. He sent them over $100K dollars, far in excess of what he was given.

They demanded that he return to Iraq to face punishment. According to Mazen, they would have tortured or killed him becuase Iraq needed engineers, and he decided he didn't want to become one.

So again I ask, what glasses must I put on to "understand" what the Iraqi government put him through.

 

You don't know what you are talking about.
Sorry, but being in the mlitary doesn't give someone an automatic pass.
If you were ever in during war time then you would know how much 'indoctrinated' beliefs are hammered into ones psyche.
Soldiers do not make good reporters, they have a very biased point of veiw.
On the other hand, I personally know an in country reporter who observes a very different dynamic going on than what bigtruck has reported here.

jvernacchio, it seems we don't learn from our own history and we are repeating it.
During 'Nam, If someone was against the war they were labled a pinko or commie and the peace symbol was characterized as 'the footprint of the american chicken'. Now if one is against the war one is characterized as a liberal and said in a denigrating bigoted manner.
The same hate is coming from the same group (the fanatical right). 'Nam was extended by years because of their support of it, as this one will be, and the outcome will be the same, more dead American troops for basically no gain.
Who gains from these conflicts? Try the Military industrial complex, and now the kicker in this one, the oil interests.
The Congress has already approved of $126.1 billion (so far) on this war, its going into someones pocket isn't it? Hint: it's not the troops.
Here is another bit of arrogant incompetence, we can't keep our own borders secure, why do we think that we can do it elsewhere?
Homeland security is a sham, freaking Cat Stevens was on a watchlist (not an anonymous guy by any stretch, by any name) and was still allowed to board a plane without challange. We have serious problems here at home, we aren't secure after how many billions spent?
How can anyone think we can make Iraq secure when we can't perform the same function here at home.
Why wasn't Israel consulted and implemented in securing our airports?
They have the best record on the planet.

Patiot act has eroded our freedoms and privacy.
bigtruck may believe that he is fighting for Iraquiis freedom and liberty, but at our expense of freedom and liberty?
Something stinks in all of this, and always has.

 

i am sorry LOUDist to burst your bubble but those in country reporters that you put your stock in will write anything to get a story, they put there opinions and takes on the situations at hand without knowing the whole truth, my squad will go into a sitaution, pacify the area and the reporters come in when it is safe and look around and write about what they see and believe it is true, what you read is just another persons opinion about what went down in any given situation, the only way you could understand and gain my knowledge and experience is to pick up a gun and go over there and find out what it is like for yourself, yes there are people over there that hate us, yes there are people over there that love us, the ones that love us are the ones that are informed and understand what we are doing for them

 

I'll chime in here, since I'm half Vietnamese.

Want to assure defeat in a war? Pull out prematurely.

 

First, I remember reading that he donates to questionable organizations (Hamas?), and thats what put him on the watch list.

Second, I believe he is on 'our' watch list, read within our borders. Which means we either have to our people at every airport around the world or have other countries help with screening our watchlist.

Third he was detained at the airport, meaning he didn't get in freely and dissappear into the crowd. That is a success.

Other then that I agree with you. Airport security is crock, I have the same faith in it now as did on 9/10.