From that site: More than 14 million Americans are believed to suffer from alcohol abuse and dependence; the cost to society is estimated at $184 billion annually, "or about the same range as cancer and heart disease," reported Dr. Fulton Crews, director of the Bowles Center for Alcohol Studies and professor of pharmacology and psychiatry at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. "A lot of that cost is in lost productivity."

That last sentence says it all. Who measures "lost productivity"? I agree, it's there. But what about the same measurement for smoking? In my office alone there is a HUGE amount of wasted time by smokers taking smoke breaks all day long. Multiply that by 50 million smokers and see what the dollars add up to. "Lost productivity" is a very hard term to define, and I would question the validity of such an assessment without some type of hard information to back it up. And also, I would expect a person who's income is derived by alcohol treatment research (Dr. Fulton Crews above) to skew the stats to better make his point, kind of like you are doing too.

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Roughly the same #'s I saw while reading, on multiple sites.

However, I see you left out an important sentence from your quote above: Despite the achievements of the 20th century, approximately 48 million U.S. adults smoke cigarettes; half of those who continue to smoke will die from a smoking-related disease.

So, if you can extrapolate $184 billion out of 14 million people who have a drinking problem, I guess it is fair to extrapolate about $600 billion out of 48 million people who smoke.

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No, actually I can't see it. The figures just don't add up and neither does your logic. Just because you can see smoke and can't always know a drunk is on the road does not mean the visible one is less of a problem. 443,000 people die from smoking every year. How many are killed by drunks ? Even with your out-of-date stats, drunks kill 65 people a day on our roads. Smoking kills 1213 people per day. How about the medical costs? Do you really think they are the same? What does an average cancer treatment / hospice cost BEFORE the poor soul finally expires?

And you should do the same...

I notice that all of the stats you used were from 1989-1992 ? If you were to check for some stats that have been compiled in the last 2 or 3 years, you would see that the drunk driving and what-not costs (money and lives) have dropped over 40% from the late 80's-early 90's levels that you are quoting, mostly due to stiffer fines and better enforcement of DUI laws.

Smoking, on the other hand, has remained basically unchanged (From your web site):

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First, trends from the 1975-1998 Monitoring the Future surveys (17) indicate that the 30-day prevalence of tobacco use (smoking on greater than or equal to 1 of the 30 days before the survey) among high school seniors decreased from the late 1970s to the mid-1980s, and prevalence was approximately 30%; however, during 1991-1997 smoking prevalence increased to 36.5%.

Second, decreasing prevalence among adults since the mid-1960s has not continued (Figure 2). Since 1990, prevalence among both men and women has remained constant (approximately 28.0% for men and approximately 22.5% for women). The stagnation emphasizes the need for policy changes that encourage quitting and for improved access to proven treatment interventions (e.g., Food and Drug Administration-approved pharmacotherapy and behavior counseling).

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As far as being able to "see, smell and get the hell away from" someone else's smoke, why should I have to do that in the first place? If I want to have dinner with my 13 year old son, we should be able to go out and eat without breathing someone's cigarette smoke. Period.

If someone were to open a "smoking-friendly" establishment and I chose to patronize it, then I would expect to breathe smoke.

Using your logic, I guess you should just choose not to drive so as to lower your chances of meeting a drunk driver. I know that sounds extreme, but is it really any less extreme than expecting the majority of the US population who are non-smokers (~83%) to run away from the minority who choose to smoke?

As far as the crime stats, I noticed that many included drugs with the alcohol ratings. I don't believe they are mutually inclusive. For that matter, I bet a bunch of those same folks are smokers as well.

Anyway, the original point is this:

If I drink in a legal manner, it absolutely does not affect you or anyone else in any way.

If you smoke in a legal manner, it certainly can and does affect me and many others in many ways.

That is why the laws to moderate it have become necessary...

 

Alcohol abuse and dependence = $184 billion annually

VS.

Tobaco health issues etc. = $100 billion annually


You be the judge...


Stats are stats. I didn't make anything up of leave anything out intentionally. There is a lot of information on those sites as well as the sites you point out. They both make excellent arguments as to both alcohol and tabaco costing society big time money and health problems. It just so happens alcohol is the bigger evil of the two and cost almost twice as much to society...

 

I break wind in Public with regularity and there ain't a damn thing no one can do about it.

Most times they don't even know it's me, especially when I give the nearest person a disgusted look and say 'P-U'! I then make my escape while the victim protests his innocence to an angry mob.

Occasionally I'll get caught by some indignent person who will say "Oh my, there ought to be a law!'.

But I just laugh and run away screaming, "There ain't one! There ain't one!"

(and they let me moderate someone else, here?)

 

http://spahp.creighton.edu/desimone/.../AWECONOML.ppt

Just some information from above link:

Alcohol causes each year:
- 540,000 injuries in traffic accidents
- 17,000 deaths by drunk drivers, one person killed every 30 minutes.
- 107,400 deaths from medical problems

Alcohol is responsible for:
- 1 of every 3 falls
- 4 of every 10 reported assaults
- 1 of every 2 drowning deaths
- 2 of every 3 hypothermia deaths
- 3 of every 5 murders
- 1 of every 3 forcible rapes.

Question?
How much of the above statistics can be attributed to cigarette smokers?

We shall continue…
Tobacco only gets a little statement in these statistics which are basically for alcohol from the site above.

Tobacco & Alcohol figures
- 29.3 % of the population, older then 11 years old smokes.
- Tobacco’s cost of abuse is greater then $100 billion.
- 46.6 % of the population, older then 11 years old drinks.
- Alcohol’s cost of abuse is greater then $148 billion.

Alcohol cost society approx. 48% more money in abuse then does smoking


Who bears the cost of alcohol abuse?
Governments - $57.2 billion (38.6%)
Private insurance - $15.1 billion (10.2%)
Victims – $8.9 billion (6.0%)
Abusers/household – $66.8 billion (45.1%)

Tobacco is a BIG MONEY maker for local, state and the federal government. http://www.rjrt.com/TI/TI_TaxesPayments.asp

Next time you see a smoker who is of little harm to you walk up and thank them for giving a much BIGGER share of their money to local, state and federal tax collectors…

 

I fart in the general direction of those numbers...

 

I wondered why you had that outrageous accent!

 

I don't smoke and have not since they went to $1.00/pack (1985). I smoked "5" packs/day when I was "overseas" the first time in the Army. I worked in a Chem. Plant for 31 years, so I don't know if things taste better or smell better after quitting or not. But, I would hate to have the habit w/todays prices (I'm too cheap to smoke!). If my wife had not quit when I did, I wouldn't have been able to. Good luck to those trying to quit, it isn't easy, but it is "do-able". Good luck to those who aren't quitting, as I fear for your health. Just wanted to put in my 2cents, thanks!

 

http://www.rsps.btinternet.co.uk/audio/brownies.wav

 

I've been reading all the posts on this thread and I still can't figure out why you all have your shorts in a wad.
Tabasco is pretty good stuff. Sure I like Texas Pete better, but if it ain't around, I use Tabasco. The kind I get has never smoked, so nobody at the tables around me ever complains.
I don't have a edication like most of youse do, but those figures on Tabasco use and it's consequences seem a bit out of line.

Now alcohol, that's some gooooood stufffff! Yesir! I kinda like'm together, jest a little pinch of tabasco on a pickled egg and a good shot of alcohol to chase it....... ouhweeeeeeee..... good.

 

To everyone who has been able to quit I would like to offer a very hardy CONGRATULATIONS. It is damn hard to do and the longer one has smoked the harder it is for them to quit.

No one should feel embarrassed if they need to see a hypnotist or chew cabagges or whatever else it takes in order to be successfull. If you fall off of the wagon fine, don't get down on yourself or let others get you down, just toss the overpriced death sticks you bought the day before and stop again.

One of the biggest mistakes I made while quitting was to finish a pack when I fell of the wagon. My rational was that I didn't want to waste the money by throwing them away. But that money was wasted the minute it was laid upon the counter. Toss em, pour coffee grounds and bacon grease over them. (this alone makes you think twice when you lay your money down)

Think of it this way: A brand new truck or boat up in smoke every ten years.

 

Nick, you are right, but in my case I am using these last few days to "phyche myself up" for the task ahead of me.
I know it sounds lame, but it's true.

Habibi

 

Good luck, what ever it takes for you to be successful is cool.

 

Habibi - good luck with your efforts to stop! The fact that you have quit a couple of times in the past for extended periods will definitely help you quit this time for good! A suggestion would be that you make your goal to be smokeless for longer than longest period you quit previously - ie, break your own record.

As Nick says above, don't be hesitant about trying ANYTHING that will help you to stop! I had tried everything but hypnosis worked for me... the core thing was that you are committed and want to stop. And yes, you'll probably go through a few mood swings, etc.... but all that passes quickly.

One of the things to keep in mind is that it doesn't take your body that long to wean itself off of nicotine..... the hardest part is breaking the habit... ie, oral fixation, something to do with your hands, filling the time that you would have spent smoking, etc. Also be acutely aware of your surroundings for awhile - ie, it is real tempting to light up again if you're hanging with buddies in a bar....

Best of luck.... there's alot of people here rooting for you!!!!

 

Smoked for 17 years.
I probably tried to quit a dozen times until to took.
When your mind is right it will happen.

I tried the hypnosis twice.
The first time it didn't work but, for two weeks I was known as the 'Chicken Man of Yorktown'.

Old Habibi -

New Habibi -

 

Do we dare ask what happened the second time? (my guess is you became the "Egg Man of Yorktown" as everyone knows the chicken came first.... )