Won't crank
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Won't crank
2002 Lincoln Blackwood, just clicks when trying to start, battery is good. OK this is just weird. Everything was working fine, the battery is about a year old. Developed a miss so I changed out the coils (COP) which helped a little (down from 4 codes: misfire 2, misfire 6, lean bank 1, lean bank 2, to one, lean bank 2, code 174 I think) so I changed the plugs on bank 2, (they look fine) measured coil resistances and swapped one of the old ones back in which meant unbolting stuff from the firewall, and now the truck won't start. Hey, I'm no virgin here, I've been through this routine about 4 times and put it all back just exactly the same as every other time. Short across the start relay (solenoid on firewall) terminals, click. So now what? Why, incidentally, is there a small wire on the solenoid on the starter? Why is that there and what does it do? I wouldn't think it'd be needed for bypassing a ballast resistor and with a firewall solenoid I don't see why it'd be needed for firing off the solenoid on the starter. Who can make some sense of this mess? Thanks you, JB
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To skip to the bottom line. The big battery cable on the solenoid mounted on top of the starter should be live(or have power) at all times. The small wire on the solenoid mounted on top of the starter should be live ONLY when the ignition switch is held in the START position. If that checks out, you will probably be looking at removing the starter. Obviously check the condition of the small wire connection there before removing the starter. There seems to be some problems with that. That's my take, hoping for second opinions.
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Guess it's a bad starter, and that looks like a pain to remove too. With such a big truck you'd have thought they'd have been able to leave enough room to get your hands in around the starter. Apparently not.
Well, new solenoid on firewall, it works correctly, and when jumpered across the big lugs the solenoid on the starter makes the right noises too but the starter doesn't run. I tested the small terminal on the starter with a jumper and that feeds the winding in the solenoid so, weird as it sounds, that must be tied to the power feed from the firewall solenoid somehow. Hey, why run one wire when you can run two, right? Goes right along with running two solenoids when everybody else is just using one I suppose. Better ideas and all that. Time to go bruise some knuckles I guess. What weird timing. JB
Well, new solenoid on firewall, it works correctly, and when jumpered across the big lugs the solenoid on the starter makes the right noises too but the starter doesn't run. I tested the small terminal on the starter with a jumper and that feeds the winding in the solenoid so, weird as it sounds, that must be tied to the power feed from the firewall solenoid somehow. Hey, why run one wire when you can run two, right? Goes right along with running two solenoids when everybody else is just using one I suppose. Better ideas and all that. Time to go bruise some knuckles I guess. What weird timing. JB
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From: midwest
You might try whacking on the starter with a hammer. I have read about people doing that and getting a few more starts.
Yhoa it's beyond me why Ford went from that simple design of only one large battery cable going down to the starter and one simple solenoid located near the battery. Another example of giving a new meaning to the word progress.
Yhoa it's beyond me why Ford went from that simple design of only one large battery cable going down to the starter and one simple solenoid located near the battery. Another example of giving a new meaning to the word progress.
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From: Under the flightpath of old ORD 22R
Not sure if you mean to call the device on the firewall a solenoid, that is the starter motor relay. The starter solenoid is part of the starter itself if I am recalling this correctly.
The small wire is the power from the key in the start position through the DTR ( Digital Transmission Range ) Sensor to the start motor relay.
This is so the truck can only start in park or neutral.
Not sure what "starter makes the right noises too but the starter doesn't run" means. Is this the starter spins up, but the bendix is not engaging the flywheel ? ( what they sounds like if you power them up out of the truck ).
If the starter is only clicking, did you check the lugs on the starter for corrosion and make sure the lug is fully attached to the cable ( not a few strands, the remainder are broken off flush with the terminal end ) ? if both of the battery cables are not clean and have a good connection, it can cause no start issues.
One of the cables powers the solenoid the other powers the starter motor.
The cable from the battery before the mega fuses is a Y. 1 leg is to the 2 mega fuses the other is direct to the starter ( else you would be popping mega fuses in the winter ).
Seems part of the confusion in this thread is from not knowing how the starting system works ( might not be a virgin, but that does not mean you know how to pleasure your truck )
With all this going on, did you load test the battery ? The age does not, in itself, remove the possibility of an issue with it.
When you were unbolting stuff from the firewall, did you make sure to put everything back the same ?
Seems the no start problem started after you were removing items from the firewall ( starter motor relay ), which could be a damaged cable or the cables are installed incorrectly.
The small wire is the power from the key in the start position through the DTR ( Digital Transmission Range ) Sensor to the start motor relay.
This is so the truck can only start in park or neutral.
Not sure what "starter makes the right noises too but the starter doesn't run" means. Is this the starter spins up, but the bendix is not engaging the flywheel ? ( what they sounds like if you power them up out of the truck ).
If the starter is only clicking, did you check the lugs on the starter for corrosion and make sure the lug is fully attached to the cable ( not a few strands, the remainder are broken off flush with the terminal end ) ? if both of the battery cables are not clean and have a good connection, it can cause no start issues.
One of the cables powers the solenoid the other powers the starter motor.
The cable from the battery before the mega fuses is a Y. 1 leg is to the 2 mega fuses the other is direct to the starter ( else you would be popping mega fuses in the winter ).
Seems part of the confusion in this thread is from not knowing how the starting system works ( might not be a virgin, but that does not mean you know how to pleasure your truck )
With all this going on, did you load test the battery ? The age does not, in itself, remove the possibility of an issue with it.
When you were unbolting stuff from the firewall, did you make sure to put everything back the same ?
Seems the no start problem started after you were removing items from the firewall ( starter motor relay ), which could be a damaged cable or the cables are installed incorrectly.
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It's been a frustrating week.. I used to know how to work on cars, I guess that's just not true anymore. This whole thing started with a miss and check engine light and now the more I work on it the worse it gets.
So yesterday I pulled the starter and took it to the store and had them put it on their machine, where the solenoid pulled in but the motor didn't run. Fair enough I thought, and bought a new starter. Hey, I have just one word for the job of R&Ring the starter on this truck: Impossible. Realistically, brushes don't last forever so even if it did work what sense did it make to go through all that misery just to put an old and partially worn out starter back in? So after that I went for a test drive and the miss is still there. But at least the starter worked. Until this morning that is. Click---all the lights go out. WTF???! OK, I know what causes that... or at least I used to know, I'm not so sure anymore. In a way it's reassuring to see that wiggling the cables brings the lights back on, but now I'm second guessing if the counter jock at the store pushed the right button on the tester.. I really don't want to start thinking that way, I mean I really, really don't.
So I'm sorry for calling the firewall starter relay.. whatever it was you called it, a solenoid. I know it ain't a solenoid, obviously you do too and I understand that proper terminology is important but I just didn't have the exact term handy so I used what I had. I was trying to get transportation rather than sit on the computer and I guess I let myself get a little rushed. It happens. The good news is that the truck is getting lots of nice pricey new parts that ought to work real good for a real long time. And things are getting replaced that are starting to get a little older and might break down sometime in the distant future, maybe, so I should be happy. I am! All the scratches and scrapes on my good left hand from the starter swap are bringing me constant enjoyment and reminding me endlessly of what fun I've been having. Here in a little while I'll go back upstairs and track down the bad connection that reared it's ugly head this morning and all will be right with the world.
Except that the miss won't be gone.
In case you're interested, and what the heck, in case you're not too. What does it matter? This curious problem cropped up last winter about this time while on a trip cross country to deliver a car to a body shop. About 20 hours into the trip it seemed we took on a tank of gas with some water in it, or at least that was our best guess. Missfire, cowl shake, the odd thing is that it only happened under steady state cruising and sometimes downshifting out of OD cured it for awhile. (OK, yes I know you aren't supposed to tow in OD and I'll probably pay for that mistake... am I the only one who's done it? It was a light load OK?) The odd and confusing thing was that it would come and go, almost like there was some water sloshing around in the tank and every once in awhile a slug would get sent to the injectors. Heading back empty it more or less went away and after getting back I hadn't really had any more trouble out of it until the last couple of weeks when it returned with a vengence. So I figured I had gotten some more bad gas. Put some alcohol in it, no help. So I dropped the tank and bought a new filter and a new fuel pump, drained thoroughly, buttoned it up, no change. Which wasn't really a surprise since I found no traces of water, but I couldn't see much point in going through that ordeal without installing a new pump either so I did.
Then just as I was about to go shopping for injectors and a fuel pressure regulator, a bright young fella on this board who responded to my post on the Blackwood forum suggested the coils might be going bad. That made surprisingly good sense because the miss happens (all the time now) only under light throttle (lean) conditions and I had codes for misfires on #2 and #6 and showing lean on both banks. Since a missfire causes a lean O2 reading that made perfect sense so I ordered a set of coils. (It helped immensely to learn that the COP coils recommended service life is 100K miles.) Swapped those out and... same miss. Only now I'm down to one code, lean on bank 2. So I go buy a 1/4" torque wrench and swap the plugs on the passenger side... have to have the torque wrench so that Ford could save the cost of putting full threads in the spark plug holes on these 4v heads. Wouldn't want to blow out another spark plug due to improperly torqued plugs you know, (like the one caused by the assembly line robot that mis-torqued one plug) that's about a $400 repair requiring special tools that also cost about $400. What a concept.. but it's better than a head swap I guess, and it probably cut the cost of my $40,000+ truck by about a nickle so I'm glad to buy the torque wrench.
So where was I? Oh yeah, swapped out the plugs and was bolting the power leads back on the starter relay solenoid thingey on the firewall when.. Crack! (cussword) Yep, we all know what that means, and now can you believe this? The parts store does not carry it! You gotta be kidding me. The most common Ford part ever made and the parts store lists it as unavailable??! What's up with that?
The next day I found a universal one for a F150 (after ransacking the workshop for one... I just KNOW it's here somewhere, I remember it and it was only ever used once.) make up an extra wire for the coil ground and I'm back in business... sort of. This is where the starter decides to act up. You can just see the frustration beginning to build. Wow. Thank goodness I'm over that!
So the starter's in and on the test drive the missfire is still there. Guess after fixing the power lead that's decided to go south I'll go ahead and swap out the rest of the plugs and then go have the codes read again, but I'm pretty sure what the result will be. Probably lean on 2. (plugs look fine btw)
Which brings us back to the beginning, namely, I really do think I used to know how to work on cars. Now, not so much. So it's back to shopping for injectors and a FPR unless anyone here has a better idea. Just don't ask me to change out the starter.
JB
So yesterday I pulled the starter and took it to the store and had them put it on their machine, where the solenoid pulled in but the motor didn't run. Fair enough I thought, and bought a new starter. Hey, I have just one word for the job of R&Ring the starter on this truck: Impossible. Realistically, brushes don't last forever so even if it did work what sense did it make to go through all that misery just to put an old and partially worn out starter back in? So after that I went for a test drive and the miss is still there. But at least the starter worked. Until this morning that is. Click---all the lights go out. WTF???! OK, I know what causes that... or at least I used to know, I'm not so sure anymore. In a way it's reassuring to see that wiggling the cables brings the lights back on, but now I'm second guessing if the counter jock at the store pushed the right button on the tester.. I really don't want to start thinking that way, I mean I really, really don't.
So I'm sorry for calling the firewall starter relay.. whatever it was you called it, a solenoid. I know it ain't a solenoid, obviously you do too and I understand that proper terminology is important but I just didn't have the exact term handy so I used what I had. I was trying to get transportation rather than sit on the computer and I guess I let myself get a little rushed. It happens. The good news is that the truck is getting lots of nice pricey new parts that ought to work real good for a real long time. And things are getting replaced that are starting to get a little older and might break down sometime in the distant future, maybe, so I should be happy. I am! All the scratches and scrapes on my good left hand from the starter swap are bringing me constant enjoyment and reminding me endlessly of what fun I've been having. Here in a little while I'll go back upstairs and track down the bad connection that reared it's ugly head this morning and all will be right with the world.
Except that the miss won't be gone.
In case you're interested, and what the heck, in case you're not too. What does it matter? This curious problem cropped up last winter about this time while on a trip cross country to deliver a car to a body shop. About 20 hours into the trip it seemed we took on a tank of gas with some water in it, or at least that was our best guess. Missfire, cowl shake, the odd thing is that it only happened under steady state cruising and sometimes downshifting out of OD cured it for awhile. (OK, yes I know you aren't supposed to tow in OD and I'll probably pay for that mistake... am I the only one who's done it? It was a light load OK?) The odd and confusing thing was that it would come and go, almost like there was some water sloshing around in the tank and every once in awhile a slug would get sent to the injectors. Heading back empty it more or less went away and after getting back I hadn't really had any more trouble out of it until the last couple of weeks when it returned with a vengence. So I figured I had gotten some more bad gas. Put some alcohol in it, no help. So I dropped the tank and bought a new filter and a new fuel pump, drained thoroughly, buttoned it up, no change. Which wasn't really a surprise since I found no traces of water, but I couldn't see much point in going through that ordeal without installing a new pump either so I did.
Then just as I was about to go shopping for injectors and a fuel pressure regulator, a bright young fella on this board who responded to my post on the Blackwood forum suggested the coils might be going bad. That made surprisingly good sense because the miss happens (all the time now) only under light throttle (lean) conditions and I had codes for misfires on #2 and #6 and showing lean on both banks. Since a missfire causes a lean O2 reading that made perfect sense so I ordered a set of coils. (It helped immensely to learn that the COP coils recommended service life is 100K miles.) Swapped those out and... same miss. Only now I'm down to one code, lean on bank 2. So I go buy a 1/4" torque wrench and swap the plugs on the passenger side... have to have the torque wrench so that Ford could save the cost of putting full threads in the spark plug holes on these 4v heads. Wouldn't want to blow out another spark plug due to improperly torqued plugs you know, (like the one caused by the assembly line robot that mis-torqued one plug) that's about a $400 repair requiring special tools that also cost about $400. What a concept.. but it's better than a head swap I guess, and it probably cut the cost of my $40,000+ truck by about a nickle so I'm glad to buy the torque wrench.
So where was I? Oh yeah, swapped out the plugs and was bolting the power leads back on the starter relay solenoid thingey on the firewall when.. Crack! (cussword) Yep, we all know what that means, and now can you believe this? The parts store does not carry it! You gotta be kidding me. The most common Ford part ever made and the parts store lists it as unavailable??! What's up with that?
The next day I found a universal one for a F150 (after ransacking the workshop for one... I just KNOW it's here somewhere, I remember it and it was only ever used once.) make up an extra wire for the coil ground and I'm back in business... sort of. This is where the starter decides to act up. You can just see the frustration beginning to build. Wow. Thank goodness I'm over that!
So the starter's in and on the test drive the missfire is still there. Guess after fixing the power lead that's decided to go south I'll go ahead and swap out the rest of the plugs and then go have the codes read again, but I'm pretty sure what the result will be. Probably lean on 2. (plugs look fine btw)
Which brings us back to the beginning, namely, I really do think I used to know how to work on cars. Now, not so much. So it's back to shopping for injectors and a FPR unless anyone here has a better idea. Just don't ask me to change out the starter.
JB
Last edited by Jim Blackwood; Jan 27, 2011 at 09:40 AM.
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From: Among javelinas and scorpions in Zoniestan
Jim - I'm no expert, but it sounds like you pretty much took care of the ignition part of the equation already?
That really only leaves fuel. Is it possible you have a gummed-up throttle body? That can cause a surprising number of "poor running" symptoms, but it's easy to clean. Here's a how-to for the more recent trucks - I think yours is similar: https://www.f150online.com/forums/ar...ttle-body.html
And, you could have a dirty MAF sensor too. Here's how to clean that: https://www.f150online.com/forums/ar...ml#post4193148
I know what you mean though when you say you "used to know what to do". I'm in that same boat. :o
- Jack
That really only leaves fuel. Is it possible you have a gummed-up throttle body? That can cause a surprising number of "poor running" symptoms, but it's easy to clean. Here's a how-to for the more recent trucks - I think yours is similar: https://www.f150online.com/forums/ar...ttle-body.html
And, you could have a dirty MAF sensor too. Here's how to clean that: https://www.f150online.com/forums/ar...ml#post4193148
I know what you mean though when you say you "used to know what to do". I'm in that same boat. :o
- Jack
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I hope. Turns out I probably got screwed by the shop that did the plug fix and wasn't able to change out that plug so I'll just have to hope for the best on that one. The rest seem fine. Guess I should have bought the tool and done it myself. The no-start this morning was my fault. I missed tightening the + battery clamp the last time so that was en easy (though slightly embarrassing) fix. I read the info on the TB and MAF, never would have thought to look there. That could cause the rough idle I'd guess, though I'm not sure how it would cause the miss at speed. Still, it sounds like something I need to do, and certainly easier and cheaper than the injectors. Just as likely too from the sound of it.
JB
JB
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still stumbles
I cleaned the MAF sensor and throttle body but they weren't very dirty so I didn't expect much and in that I wasn't disappointed. It has the dual throat TB and though there was some build up on the plates, a shot of carb cleaner and light brushing took it all right off. Didn't seem to be any coating unless it was clear. Used electrical cleaner on the MAF sensor.
Everything under the hood looks very good for a truck with 112,000 miles. Hoses are still pliable, no signs of cracking or brittleness in the plastic or rubber parts, No sign of any unplugged vacuum lines or any damage that would cause leakage. A couple of frayed spots on those foam covers was the only damage I found, it's all pretty clean and tidy. Since I had it off anyway, I did the Gott mod on the air cleaner inlet, but with a twist. I used the swelled end of a 3" thinwall sewer pipe, took a heat gun and shrunk the end of that down enough to get a tight fit in the inside of the housing, then took my Weller soldering gun and melted out two windows for the latches to engage. Cut it off, cleaned up the edges and snapped it together. Perfect fit, cost: zero. Color: white, big deal.
So, no change. Oh, and just in case I accidentally gave the wrong impression, I wasn't dingin' Tarajerame when I said he was a bright young fella, I think he really is, and if he's not that young it was meant as a compliment.
Anyway, back to square one. The cowl shake is still there and shows up under cruise around 35 mph on up to illegal speed. Rough idle didn't get any better. Cold is OK and heavy throttle is OK, it smooths out real nice when I hit the gas, though there is often a delicate balance between enough gas to smooth it out and a downshift, which doesn't always make it run smooth. The check engine light hasn't come back on yet, since I had the battery unhooked I guess it reset and hasn't coded out again yet.
I've looked at the injectors several times under different lighting and seen different things so I'm still not confident what injectors are in the truck (32V 5.4) First I using a incadescent spotlight I thought they were a medium gray. Then with an LED flashlight (big one) they look OD green. Out in the driveway I couldn't see them well enough under natural light to tell they were anything but black. T posted a color chart for me which should have been real helpful but now I just don't know. Did another S.Crew use that motor? I'm really not sure how to find out what injectors it used. I figure I'm about down to the injectors and the fuel pressure regulator at this point but of course that might not fix it either. Anybody got any other ideas?
JB
Everything under the hood looks very good for a truck with 112,000 miles. Hoses are still pliable, no signs of cracking or brittleness in the plastic or rubber parts, No sign of any unplugged vacuum lines or any damage that would cause leakage. A couple of frayed spots on those foam covers was the only damage I found, it's all pretty clean and tidy. Since I had it off anyway, I did the Gott mod on the air cleaner inlet, but with a twist. I used the swelled end of a 3" thinwall sewer pipe, took a heat gun and shrunk the end of that down enough to get a tight fit in the inside of the housing, then took my Weller soldering gun and melted out two windows for the latches to engage. Cut it off, cleaned up the edges and snapped it together. Perfect fit, cost: zero. Color: white, big deal.
So, no change. Oh, and just in case I accidentally gave the wrong impression, I wasn't dingin' Tarajerame when I said he was a bright young fella, I think he really is, and if he's not that young it was meant as a compliment.
Anyway, back to square one. The cowl shake is still there and shows up under cruise around 35 mph on up to illegal speed. Rough idle didn't get any better. Cold is OK and heavy throttle is OK, it smooths out real nice when I hit the gas, though there is often a delicate balance between enough gas to smooth it out and a downshift, which doesn't always make it run smooth. The check engine light hasn't come back on yet, since I had the battery unhooked I guess it reset and hasn't coded out again yet.
I've looked at the injectors several times under different lighting and seen different things so I'm still not confident what injectors are in the truck (32V 5.4) First I using a incadescent spotlight I thought they were a medium gray. Then with an LED flashlight (big one) they look OD green. Out in the driveway I couldn't see them well enough under natural light to tell they were anything but black. T posted a color chart for me which should have been real helpful but now I just don't know. Did another S.Crew use that motor? I'm really not sure how to find out what injectors it used. I figure I'm about down to the injectors and the fuel pressure regulator at this point but of course that might not fix it either. Anybody got any other ideas?
JB
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From: Among javelinas and scorpions in Zoniestan
No new thoughts from me, Jim - Sorry! :o
I was really hopeful on the TB and the MAF sensor and, Tumba's suggestion of a vacuum leak really sounded dead on too.
- Jack
I was really hopeful on the TB and the MAF sensor and, Tumba's suggestion of a vacuum leak really sounded dead on too.
- Jack
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One other possibility maybe. This problem cropped up just a few days after I swapped out the heater core. That was a real big job and took me several days to do. I know the heater uses vacuum but I don't remember unhooking the vacuum line for it even though I must have done it, but maybe there is a chance that came loose on the trip. Not that I'm the least interested in digging back in there, but if I knew where that line connected to the intake maybe I could pinch it off and find out if that made any difference.
JB
JB
