but ford should not have to prove that

It is up to the technician who diagnoses a problem to prove that the diagnosis is correct. It is NOT up to the end user.

Why would you think that Ford doesn't have to prove it? Do you just take their word for it whenever something breaks on your truck?

 

I am not sure I can take this to the Dispute Resolution Board. They say they will not deal with any warranty claims that involve a non-Ford product. Technically, my warranty claim involves the PCM/ECU and the reason Ford claims it failed (the Superchip). I am going to try the DRB before taking legal action.

I have an email (printed and included in the materials for the DRB) from the Service Manager at the Ford dealership that says in part

"After reading the information from SuperChip and then reading the information from Ford Motor Company It has come to me that I am the one that Ford has put into a very difficult situation. However, I will be checking into Ford motor companies stance on SuperChips and Aftermarket devices like them. As the information from SuperChips indicated, Ford's WDS System and the SBDS system will not communicate with the PCM if a chip is installed into the PCM. We do not have any technology available to us to actually test the workings of the Superchip or the individual functionality of the lC's internal to the PCM. All we can do is test if the PCM is functioning or not.

Using the information sent by you and the lacking of Ford documentation I will issue a Warranty Claim with Ford Motor Company for the towing and the PCM replacement. I am also going to make the Ford rep give me information on exactly how Ford Motor Company plans to defend themselves against this situation in the future to keep others like yourself from going through a similar situation.

I will send you a check as soon as I am reimbursed by Ford motor company. This usually takes two to three days."

The dealer essentially says, "I just did what Ford tells me to do - deny warranty claims if a Superchip is installed; however, I think you are right and Ford is wrong (he told me that on the phone). "

The dealer is not the bad guy here. He has told me twice that he supports my position, but, Ford signs his paycheck so he does what they say.

I have the original Superchip and, if I get the PCM returned, they are both going to Mike Troyer for testing. I think they are trying to get me to drop it by dragging it out and threatening a legal defense.

 

btw - yes there is a core charge on pcm's, there is now on maf sensors aswell, and altenators and a number of other items

Must not be the case in the state of Iowa then?? My MAF failed, was replaced by a Des Moines Ford dealer, and the original MAF was in the floorboard when I picked it up. The element was still installed in it and everything. No extra core charge was on the invoice, and I never even asked for the old part back. This was about a month ago or so, is that a new thing in the last month? I promptly bored out the old MAF body, and installed the new element into it. I'm sure that'll rile you up, eh?,,,,98

 

BTW: What did **** me off was being charged the full labor charge plus parts. I'd love to get paid 1.5 hours fixed labor to undo two hose clamps and a plug. I have a K&N intake. GRRRRRR!!!!!!!,,,,98

 

Don't forget there are 4 bolts on there as well. That is what took so long.

 

Oh yeah!!! I forgot how slow air ratchets are,,,,98

 

Hi LRM

Pros and cons on any issue. This is one of them. I know that non-approved aftermartket mods. carry a degree of risk.

I accepted that degree of risk when i did mods. M/Moss act does give the end consumer some protection..but if you read what the MM act says, it dosent take long to figure out what all the hang ups will/can be.

Anyhow...seems to me the good news for you is your only stuck at the present time for the new install/PCM. Good news also that nothing else went wrong at the same time.

As i recall similiar problem was posted on the diesel board sometime ago...it might have been TINA? Had to do with schip frying PCM and dealer/Ford denying warranty and outcome.

Obviously the loss of your old PCM is beyond your control. Seems to me even if you get it back, thats an automatic red-flag legal issue...you know what i mean.

I see your doing some thinking on this. Ford at the present time has taken the easy way out...thats just business. Right/wrong...dont know? I do know someone at Ford reads this forum/bd...(remember..wrong rad. issue)

Defective PCM, apparently. Did schip cause it? Dont recall since ive been on this bd. that a defective PCM was caused by a schip. If that is correct..IMO...that in itself says alot.

Good luck...OT

 

yes, it is a new thing. I have to get signed out on mass air meters now until i bring the cores back. And a PCM core is pretty hefty, like $100 or more.

 

So they will no longer give you back the old part, unless you agree to pay them out the ***?? That completely SUCKS! Glad my warranty is out now!,,,98

 

How much is the Ford new Alum. MAF?? total price? I got a really nice brand new Hitachi rebuilt model and got charged $268 for it with installation,,,,98

I could tell it was rebuilt because the back plate and its' screws on my factory one were not sandblasted!

 

I have a superchip. Forgot to remove it when the truck went in for non PCM related service. When they drove it into the bay it stalled. Under warranty they scanned and found the PCM defective. I called for my truck in the afternoon and was told it needed a new PCM. I asked why and was told thet the PCM could not communicate with the Scan tool and the Memory was defective or something like that. Mike T knows all the correct terms. I asked them how they discovered that the PCM was defective and I was told about the stall. I remembered the chip and told them to simply remove the chip and I would be there in 5 minutes to pick up the truck.
I was scolded by the manager and I promised to never put the chip back in and that I didn?t know any better. I lied....... In Canada you are on your own. I suspect the chip became unseated and caused the condition. If the tech would have removed the chip and tested the PCM this whole thing would never have happened. I bet the same thing happened to LRM.

Regards

Jean Marc Chartier

 

Hi Everyone,

I don't have a problem with core charges on certain parts, as that core charge is indeed reflected in the price. For example, when you buy a new PCM, *if* you give them your old one, you save $100, and the core charge is $100. Though some may not like that, I have ot say that sounds fair, as once again, it's reflected in the **purchase price.**

To Black F150 Offroad, who posted the following:

>>>so basically what you are saying is that i broke it but i dont want to take responsiblity for it so its someone elses fault because they said i could not due it,<<<

I said no such thing, as anyone can see from my post. I *never* said that or even inferred, directly or indirectly, in any way, shape or form, any such thing, and I think you know that all too well. In fact, anyone paying attention to the line of logic would quickly see just the opposite, that we support each individual being responsible for what they do to their vehicle, and as long as they do not *damage* their vheicle with a modification, then their warranty remains intact, by law. We don't think an automaker should pay for something that isn't their fault, yet Ford, to their credit, stepped up to the plate and repalced all those FIrestone tires out of their pocket. Why? Once again legal strategy. This actually saves them money, from reducing liability from *successful* lawsuits brought forth from the families of those who have died in Explorer crashes, as well as helping to bolster the sales of their own vehecles, Explorer included. Any by the way, that problem *is* in the tires, a few of those Firestones do indeed have problems, it's not the fault of the Explorer!

>>>i guess thats why ford states not to use oil impregnated filters on some of their air boxes, maybe they should have done that on the pcm too as that cover and sealed tamper proof torx bolts didn't give the hint that a person should not fiddle with it.<<<

Gee, I guess that's exactly why Ford themselves *sells* impregnated air filters for virtually any FoMoCo vehicle, right? You know, the ones in their catalog with their own special color dye?

I guess that's also why these ECU's have a designed-in provision for removing the covers, they certainly aren't even remotely designed to be "tamper proof" in that regard, obviously. They have screws, bolts, and finally Torx screws as we progress thru the family of EEC-IV & EEC-V ECU's, all of which can easily be removed by simple hand tools that almost everyone has in their garage or kitchen drawer, etc. So much for making them "tamper-proof."

I hope for your sake, and I truly mean this, that you never find yourself the victim of someone with a legal strategy designed to ignore facts but instead only focus on actual costs, regardless of actual cause & effect. We don't want to see that happen to anyone. Well, maybe Osama Bin Laden would be fair game.

What proof do you have that it is *impossible* for a Ford ECU to fail *unless* it has a performance chip attached? Because without that proof, there is nothing to support your position that because he used a performance chip he should automatically be denied his rights under warranty. Indeed, that is in fact against the law.

Anyone who has ever worked in a Ford dealership service department (or GM. or BMW, etc.) for any length of time has indeed seen ECU's fail in vehicles that have never had any modifications of any kind whatsoever. Gee, now why does that happen? Because they aren't perfect, they have failed cold solder joints from time to time, they have components that fail from time to time, just like *anything* mass produced.

Now so far, let's all keep this in mind, nobody knows if this ECU even failed at all, or if it did how it failed, and most importantly, *why*. That is not known at all, Ford does NOT know why, the dealership does NOT know why, and frankly, neither does anyone else here, not I and not you, Black F150 Offroad. So it's rather pointless to start all this arguing back and forth over a situation that not 1 person involved in this, and not 1 person either reading or posting in this thread has any knowledge of whatsoever of regarding if the ECU has failed and if so, why.

Here's one you'll love especially. In the last issue of SVT Enthusiast, the *official* publication of SVTOA, Ford's own Bill Lane, SVT's Powertrain Systems Supervisor no less, states "Keep in mind that without establishing a connection between your modifications and actual damage, it's illegal for the dealer or manufacturer to void anything."

I wish you well,

 

super chip guy

- i was just generalizing on my statement on the i broke it someone else should pay (seems to be the general rule with life now adays, a person gets drunk and killes a few people and its not there fault its the bartender for selling them the drink)

-I also said if the chip did not cause the problem then it should be covered.

-I've seen more power strokes stalling because of a chip then a ford pcm, so who should pay for diagnois when a loose chip is the cause, ford or the customer? or for diagnois of false injector pressure related codes? Does the truck really have a pressure problem or is it just the chip? hhmmm who knows but you can bet if its not fixed right the first time the customer will not be happy and u can bet they wont want to pay for someone to diagnois and ducttape there chip in place.

maybe what happend with LRM's truck is the tech followed fords pinpoint test and it all led to pcm replacement, he ordered one as most places dont stock pcms, when he went to replace the pcm he found the chip, now who's fault is it, in relaity he should have spok with the cusomer (don't know if it was done, just generalizing again) and explain that the customer should pay for a retest of the system with the chip removed and then if the problem still occures then the pcm should be replaced, and explain that if ford does not pay the cost of the pcm that the customer will be charged.

In canada ford tests high dollar items and if they are not bad ford will not pay the dealership, pcm and idm's are tested so the techs a$$ is on the line, idm about $1200 your wrong and ford won't pay

I will say if i had a power stroke i would put a chip in, but if it caused my pcm to fail i also would not expect ford to pay or to prove that was the cause, why should it be ther expense (and down the road the consumer) to test something that i changed, especially an electrical devices.

I've seen one pcm fail in the 97 and up trucks - the guy had washed the inside out with a pressure washer (he stated he did it a few times before and never had a problem) ford pcm's arn't that bad, its not like a tfi

what filters? ford motorsport? if so they also have no warenty (on a side note i bought a motorsport cam and it came dinged, took nearly a year before they gave me a good cam)

the only factory ones that have an oil residue are the diesels

Bottom line is if the chip did not kill the pcm then warrenty should cover it, we can argue all day who should prove it but the fact still remains that the truck rolled off the assembly line with a cover on the pcm and no aftermarket chip piggy backed on it.

Deep6blue 6 - never really had any problems with my truck and when i did, the head gasket leak, fixed it myself, (believe me i dont love ford warrenty as they didn't want me to work on my own truck(had to beg and plead, truck didn't even have 5,000km (less than 3,000 miles)

98screamer - well if y'all come back now ya hear, yup too

btw my igloo thawed as its was +35c wich is around a 100F+ last week, kinda sucks though as now we are in a drought
PS i really dont care who pays for the pcm as long as it doesn't widdle down to my price tag when i go to buy a new truck

 

HUH???

98screamer - well if y'all come back now ya hear, yup too

What the heck does this mean????

 

you know how you think canadains say eh? alot, we dont relaize that we do.

just like you guys say y'all a lot, and ruf instead of roof, and deeecal instead of decal

watch tnn and you will see what i mean a.k.a the redneck channel


P.S. its also Zed not Zee