I don't disagree with your first two statements, exactly, but where did you get your information about the "handful of parameters" in the Edge/Gryphon? Did Bill Cohron tell you this? Are you sure you're not confusing "User Options" with custom tune parameters?

I'll also point out that the Diablosport Trinity is a "canned tune" programmer selling for over $600. The SCT TouchScreen Xtreme is not legal in California, and has a battery in it that has to be periodically recharged, since it's wireless. The custom tuned Livewire is in the $550 range from Troyer. The Livewire is a quality product, and Troyer's tunes are top notch, but it costs somewhat more than the Gryphon.

- Jack

 

Good grief! You are way over complicating things. Everything anyone posts is their opinion. Some opinions happen to containd some facts, some don't. When a person asks a question, they should fully expect to get nothing but opinions that contain some facts and some useful information. It's up to him to catalog the info and decide how much credence he wants to lend to it. That is what forums are all about. What happens in the real world. It just ain't perfect.

 

I've dumped the tunes these devices write to the PCM and examined the changes (I do a lot of tuning stuff, but I am not in the business). The Edge/Gryphon load a few blocks into the PCM, with just a few tables. This is why they can write the data in about 15-20 seconds. To hit all the tables its a far greater amount of data, and much longer tune time. Depending on the year and job, the 2004-2008 full PCM image takes about 4-6 minutes, depending on the programmer, to load into the PCM.

100% sure.

From Diablo's Trinity page:
The Trinity's tuning options vary depending on the vehicle that is being tuned. Gasoline powered vehicles feature tunes based .... -snip- The DiabloSport also supports custom tuning and can hold an additional 5 custom tunes. The Trinity also contains the most adjustable parameters in the market.

I don't believe it says anywhere that battery operation is the sole operation and until we start seeing this in the channel over the next week or so. Until then I don't believe anyone say it has to be be recharged to be used, or whether it has plug in operation as well. Personally, I believe wireless is a huge feature, since you can use bluetooth to update the device and download data logs without taking it out of your vehicle. That's a lot easier than using an Xcal 2/3 as a pass-through device. I may consider buying one myself, if it gives me better data logging than the DashDAQ II.

Price isn't always the sole determining factor, at least its not with me when I'm talking about a tune for a vehicle costing tens of thousands of dollars that I intend to drive for years. Price is just one part of the equation.

Concerning sale in California, no true custom tune is legal for sale in California on pollution controlled vehicles. CARB does not give one off tunes exemptions or certifications. None of these custom tuning devices can be used for on-road vehicles in California. For their canned tunes, its possible if they've gotten a CARB exemption or certification, but not for custom tunes.

The Gryphon is a great product, and has a good niche for lower end devices, but its not the "best" as far as feature set goes. The answer to the original post can't really be made without knowing goals, budget, use, etc. Its like asking "what car to buy?" Depending on the data the poster didn't supply, the Gryphon may very well be the best option, but maybe not.

Then, there's the Bully Dog GT, a very cool tuner as well. Its not a custom unit, but it has impressive features in other regards --- never cared a lot for their calibrations in the past but they may have changed significantly since the last time I looked at one. Bully Dog has time limited try it before you buy it tunes, which is a pretty nice feature for store-front shoppers.

 

Just to clarify, you have/had access to a custom tuned Gryphon and you examined the custom, not canned, tunes it contained?

The Touchscreen DOES seem to be totally wireless, but that may be a poor representation of it on SCT's website.

I didn't claim any custom tune was legal in California. But, canned tunes can be. If it is 50-State compliant, I think that includes California.

I quoted a price I saw for the Trinity as it comes from Diablosport. What is the cost of each tune over and above the "base" $600 price?

I agree cost is not the only consideration - safety, reliability, ease of use, and customer support are other criteria. Even "looks" factor in to the equation, don't they? But most importantly, does the tuner know what he's doing? Will the tune damage your engine or transmission? I feel very confident about Bill Cohron, Mike Troyer and Justin Starkey, based on numerous user posts. I don't have the same feeling at all about devices from unknown vendors.

- Jack

 

Yes. I have the tools necessary to both program and dump tunes. Plus, with my Y-cable I can put a sniffer on the line and look at what's coming across the bus but so far I haven't needed to do that. In the Edge/Gryphon canned and custom both have a limited number of parameters they change. I don't know what the total limitation is, but it would appear (I cannot claim this as fact without opening one up and looking at the chips) that Edge was able to achieve the price point for this device in part by having less on board memory. I have to wonder at what point something cannot be addressed with these devices due to capacity issues.

I'm not knocking Bill, his abilities or products. Heck, I have his FICM programming in my diesel. Rather, I was offering up more information for the user about the options out there. Maybe he could step in and tell us exactly how much memory the Gryphon has available for the tables in a given tune? A byte count on the bus will tell how much memory is transferred (and its not much based on the programming time) but without Bill's input there is no way to know what its limit is.

I agree 100%. The counter point was made in an earlier post that one of the drawbacks was that the custom tunes were not California legal. One cannot say that on the one hand SCT's product isn't a consideration because its not 50 state legal when the other custom products have the same limitation. I believe that makes the 50 state issue a moot point.

That's up to the dealers. For instance, some SCT dealers include custom tuning for free with the base $379 price for an Xcal 3 while others charge more. It boils down to what they believe their tunes are worth and what type of price point their tuning abilities can get from the market.

True. One of the reasons I would never run a canned Edge tune in my vehicles. Too many horror stories I've seen and the canned parameters I've seen have, in my opinion, shortcomings.

Agreed. That's one of the (many) reasons I like the DashDAQ over the competition for Ford data loggers.

Well, they are unknown mainly because of who advertises here. Mike Troyer seems to have the most F150 experience out there, and Justin and Bill have good reps as well, but there are a lot of tuners out there on other boards. JDM does a lot of supercharged F150 tuning. Good work, though I prefer Mike's work (I won't go into reasons here, that's enough discussion to fill another thread!) -- but I have to clarify that and say its not fact just opinion and only based on a limited number of his calibrations I've seen.

Bottom line, there are a lot of great options out there, and I recommend anyone considering a tuner does a great deal of homework. Don't go solely by anyone's word on a forum, including mine. Get the tuner on the phone and asking very detailed questions. Listen carefully, it'll be easy to determine who really knows their stuff. Even if your truck isn't supercharged, ask them questions about supercharger programming as well since its more complex and you'll gain even more confidence about who's the best.

Then there are also options for those who want to really dig in and learn what's going on, and change it themselves. HP Tuners (though they have some tables which are not available for good blower tunes), SCT Pro Racer, Sniper Special Forces (limited "custom") and others depending on the year/model Ford.

 

I'd recommend the SCT Xcal3 from Justin @ VMP Tuning. I have used the Edge and Superchips with sub par performance.