Mike,

Thanks again for calling me yesterday afternoon and explaining the problems with the DWV intake modification that I had on my truck.....I returned the intake to stock until my AF1 arrives.

If you get a chance, you may want to jump on the thread about the DWV intake mod and set some people straight. I already posted a message on that thread about our discussion...I didn't even try to explain in detail all that you told me. I just posted that there is a problem with the mod and it shouldn't be done.

I really appreciate you taking time from your busy schedule to talk with me for that long. I'll vouch for your service and business any day.

I am very much looking forward to getting my Excal2 and AF1....it feels like Christmas Eve to me

Thanks again Mike,
Sean

P.S. Anita, you rock too.

 

I would like to know more also. i did that mod too. and i'm in the process of filling out my sheets. Have you dyno'd a truck with this mod yet?? What are the pro's/con's?? thanks...

 

Just so you're not waiting for a reply from Mike to fill out your sheets I figured that I would respond with what I know.

Mike has not dynoed or tested the DWV intake mod, BUT he does know what happens when the stock tube is messed with....nothing good comes from it.

Don't even bother filling out the Excal 2 sheets with the DWV mod. Either return it back to stock or buy an aftermarket intake kit. I chose to buy an AF1 because I want the extra power, because I hate the look of that ugly stock tube, and because I like the look of the AF1.

 

FX,

Do a search on DWV intake, the original thread that persuaded me to try this mod. I posted that there was a problem wit the mod and Marc Carpenter replied with a brief explanation of the problem. Mike spoke to me last night for 40 minutes and explained everything regarding this right down to the PCM, MAF sensor and tube design. Maybe he'll chyme in if he's not too busy. I know from talking to him that he doesn't want to come across like a salesman. Yeah, he's got a business to run, but he really does not want us to blow up our trucks. He's here to help.

 

Hi everyone,

It wouldn't matter if we "dyno'd" that mod 100 times - or 10,000 times.

Everyone is going to do it slightly differently, it will *never* be done identically on each and every vehicle, and that alters the effects on the A/F's and what must be done to correct them. The other reality is that even if everyone did it *identically*, the *effect* on each individual vehicle will NEVER be identical - each and every vehicle would have to be completely datalogged and tuned from scratch in order to know that such an alteration to the stock air intake tract on any 3-valve engine was then safe to use.

That's the bottom line. So there is no such thing as somebody "dnyo'ing" it and that somehow providing some magic tuning fix to make everything all right for everyone else doing the same mod - what it will actually take to fix the tuning from the effects of such a change will be different for each and every vehicle - it always is.

People simply have to get used to the fact that the day has come and gone when you could just chop up a stock intake on an F-150 with some shadetree mod and go drive the vehicle without a tune and be kinda-sorta OK - in the F-150 that stopped with the 2004 model year, and it will most likely never be the way it used to be in the 2003 & earlier F-150's ever again.

My apologies, but I have a very firm policy of NOT running over and getting involved in threads where people are trying to push some modification, or just about anything else for that matter - not only do I not have the time to sit and type it all out, but the endless arguments & proclamations that ALWAYS result are something that I have experienced far too many times, thus I have a firm policy of not doing that. So I'm sorry, but I won't be dropping in on that thread. My role in life is not to protect people from themselves (and everyone else) - heck, it's all we can do to take care of our customers!

Have fun,

 

Alright Mike,
...I'll bring the question to you: What are your opinions about removing the "silencer" in the 4.6L 04-05's? Will this adversley effect the tune on the truck? If we were to install the xcal2 after the removal, would that have a dramatic effect on it's performance, respectively? I'd appreciate your input as always, as I know several 4.6 owners who have done this. Although I don't consider this to be a 'real' intake MOD, but I'm not the expert :-)

 

Hi C,

Thanks for dropping by,

NO, I do NOT recommend doing that - yes, it WILL throw of the A/F ratios, especially on those 04-05 4.6 F-150's - it will make them run even leaner than they already run stock - which is pretty darned lean to begin with.

Those newer 4.6 trucks have quite a few problems in bone stock trim with A/F ratios that are terrible (lean), and a very long & slow transition over into open loop even on bone-stock trim as well. In fact, we were actually called in by a major chipmaker to help them with that exact problem!!

So no, do NOT remove that silencer, and do not make any other of what we generally refer to as "shadetree" changes to the air intake tract of those trucks UNLESS you are going to order a custom tune from us AND are going to do the proper datalogging so that we can correct the MAF FT to dial in the A/F's so that the truck runs right. Otherwise you can count on a gross lean condition that the PCM is generally NOT going to warn you about via a CEL on the dash - and it'll run leaner and leaner the more throttle you give it, and the more rpms the engine runs, and the faster the vehicle goes.

The bottom line is, with *any* intake tract change in any 2004 & newer F-150, we strongly recommend doing proper datalogging to see what the effects are, as it's not like the "good old days," which for the F-150 was the 2003 & earlier model year - that has all changed. I know it is tempting to just yank out silencers, yank our hydrocarbon traps, yank out obvious sources of restriction - but you cannot do that, you will throw of the MAF transfer function and end up running very lean with elevated EGT's, and that simply is not worth another 2-3 HP (or even 10 HP!!) to burn up a motor over time.

Good luck!

 

If that is the case, then why is the same not true for aftermarket intakes, such as the AF1, etc. If that truly is the case, how can you justify selling those without a tuning required for every vehicle you sell the parts for?

I know you said it's not your place to protect people from themselves, etc... BUT I'm not even talking about the mod. I'm talking about the statement you made above. If one modification is made to multiple vehicles is made identically the same, how do you justify selling the products on one hand while recommending not installing some other mod on the other hand?

When you make statements such as that above, it removes any validity from the entire point you're trying to make.

 

Bump, in the intrest of hearing a rebuttal.

 

That should be patently obvious - you cannot compare "shadetree" mods, which of their very nature are vastly more inconsistent, to properly designed and consistently manufactured parts **that are made on a CNC machine and thus far more consistent in their nature** - that is where your logic fails.

And I think you know that you are deliberately taking this to absurd extremes, as well as making the completely invalid assumption, based on no data whatsoever, that installing ANY intake kit automatically causes problems in all these vehicles. That's an absurd argument and certainly isn't born out by any data - we have provided hundreds of AF1's for 2004 & up 5.4 3V F-150's, just for one example, and the percentage of those trucks that have any problem is extremely small - and as we are finding as we dyno more and more showroom stock trucks (most of the vehicles that we dyno are modified, of course), it's the vehicles that aren't running right to begin with, that are running lean from the factory, that throw the codes when that kit is properly installed. For more info on that, use the SEARCH feature to read my posts about our last Dyno Day so you can see that data.

This is planet Earth, where nothing is perfect - so expecting perfection in this manner is also invalid - it just doesn't work, as I think you already know. Nor does that somehow invalidate aftermarket performance parts, that argument just doesn't fly - as you already know, you are deliberately taking this to obvious extremes, and doing so with no data, that simply do not apply.

I'm not going to argue this back and forth with you on this - this is the same thing that happens virtually every time somebody doesn't like it when I warn people about doing home-brewed "mods" that are by their very nature going to be far more inconsistent compared to a commercially manufactured part where the potential result may be of concern - I won't play that game with you, my friend.

I wish you well,

 

Mike,

I apologize for stirring this issue up and for dragging you into it. I wasn't aware of all the problems and fighting that it would cause and certainly didn't want you to come under fire because of it.
I appreciate all the help that you have given me and hope that I didn't cause you too many problems or too much wasted time.

Thanks,
Sean

 

No games being played here by me. After all, you're the one putting words in my mouth. I never claimed harm done by any kit or said any kit would cause problems. I made no argument at all, actually. I simply pointed out a flaw in your argument.
You, sir, are the one who chose to drag it into this "my mod is better" argument, not me.

I don't want to bicker back and forth. I simply want to know where you get off making the claims that I pointed out above? You maid a claim that the DWV mod is inconsistent even if installed the same. The same can be said that the AF1 would yield inconsistent, potentially harmful, results since no 2 trucks are alike.
Dislike the DWV all you want, that's fine. I don't care. What I do care about is trashing a modification with a biased, no-base opinion where the argument could be applied to ANY modification.

 

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Anyone want to step up and dyno this mod to prove it actually gains anything?

 

If people feel the difference in the "seat of the pants" or if it's just in their heads; let it be. Who gives a flying F$@( if it sits well w/ anybody but themselves. It's their truck, their money, their mod, and if they like it let it be. These guys here are all grown ups and can take their own responsibilty for their changes. Didnt mean to come out harsh but "too each their own"