Mid-Octane Fuel
#31
07-13-1999, 12:03 AM
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This is a dissection of Basscat's post from above. THIS IS NOT A FLAME. If it reads like one, I'm truly sorry. Sometimes my writing style is very condescending. I apologize in advance for any perceived arrogance. Anyhow, here goes.
"The way they get that guaranteed octane is the treatments they add once the fuel is in the station tanks."
---Untrue, the octane rating is tested and certified at the refinery.
"However, take notice of when the tanks are filled by a truck at a station. They all use one hose and they never switch any valves, etc going from filling the 87 to 89 to premium octane tanks."
---Untrue, there is a tank for each individual grade of gasoline, and the tanker trucks are compartmentalized to separate the grades of gas.
"In other words, you could very well run 87 octane gas that has an octane rating of 92 octane."
---True, but unlikely. The octane rating is a guaranteed minimum, however, it is not cost effective to provide more for less.
"It is all a huge money game."
---Please explain how giving more octane for less money is a money game?????
"I have personally known many a gas station owner and its true with all of them, they just don't want the consumer to figure it out."
---WOW! Talk about stereotyping somebody. I guess because I'm from Texas, I _must_ be a redneck, own horses, and spit tobacco. Yeehaw. <Insert redneck joke here.>
"This doesn't mean that you will ALWAYS get premium a octane fuel everytime you fill with 87 or 89 octane, but only to say that by purchasing the premium, you are only buying a "guarantee" of the octane rating."
---True to an extent. See above.
"I have been called a liar on this, but later their apologies were accepted."
---I'm not calling you a liar, but you are misinforming the readers of F150online.com
"Take care."
---Thank you, I will.
BTW Basscat,
This is NOT meant as a personal attack. I do not hold any ill will toward you. I work in the chemicals industry and it is truly amazing what off-the-wall I hear about oil products and how they are manufactured, distributed, and sold. I just want to set the record straight.
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MarkS
1999 F-150 XLT, 4x4, ORP, SC, SB, 5.4 Liter, 3.73ls, Husky Truck Box, Westin Chrome Nerf Bars, TOFF Spray-in Bedliner, FORD Blue-Oval Hitch Cover, & Superchip.
"The way they get that guaranteed octane is the treatments they add once the fuel is in the station tanks."
---Untrue, the octane rating is tested and certified at the refinery.
"However, take notice of when the tanks are filled by a truck at a station. They all use one hose and they never switch any valves, etc going from filling the 87 to 89 to premium octane tanks."
---Untrue, there is a tank for each individual grade of gasoline, and the tanker trucks are compartmentalized to separate the grades of gas.
"In other words, you could very well run 87 octane gas that has an octane rating of 92 octane."
---True, but unlikely. The octane rating is a guaranteed minimum, however, it is not cost effective to provide more for less.
"It is all a huge money game."
---Please explain how giving more octane for less money is a money game?????
"I have personally known many a gas station owner and its true with all of them, they just don't want the consumer to figure it out."
---WOW! Talk about stereotyping somebody. I guess because I'm from Texas, I _must_ be a redneck, own horses, and spit tobacco. Yeehaw. <Insert redneck joke here.>
"This doesn't mean that you will ALWAYS get premium a octane fuel everytime you fill with 87 or 89 octane, but only to say that by purchasing the premium, you are only buying a "guarantee" of the octane rating."
---True to an extent. See above.
"I have been called a liar on this, but later their apologies were accepted."
---I'm not calling you a liar, but you are misinforming the readers of F150online.com
"Take care."
---Thank you, I will.
BTW Basscat,
This is NOT meant as a personal attack. I do not hold any ill will toward you. I work in the chemicals industry and it is truly amazing what off-the-wall I hear about oil products and how they are manufactured, distributed, and sold. I just want to set the record straight.
------------------
MarkS
1999 F-150 XLT, 4x4, ORP, SC, SB, 5.4 Liter, 3.73ls, Husky Truck Box, Westin Chrome Nerf Bars, TOFF Spray-in Bedliner, FORD Blue-Oval Hitch Cover, & Superchip.
#32
07-13-1999, 12:05 AM
The concentrations and ratios of benzene, "toluene", ethyl benzene, and xylenes
in water are often used to monitor "groundwater contamination" from
gasoline "storage tanks or pipelines".
The gas is still the same composition. You add any more atoms of any element in the makeup of the compound and it is no longer gasoline as we know it and could not be run without possible harm to an internal combustion engine. The only thing that changes the anti knock properties and thus the "octane" rating are "additives" that stabilize undesires like water, which like I said is done in the storage tanks once they are filled. These additives do not change the chemical composition of gas. 3 major oil companies in this area all pump the exact same fuel into the storage tanks. You are correct that they go in separate tanks, but there is nothing separating the anti knock properties (octane) except what "additives" are added to stabilize the fuel, rid of water, and contaminates.
It costs less money to refine gas all the same than it does to make it, test it, and guarantee its anti knock properties separately.
I am also an acquaintance of a friend of a friend who does chemical testing of petroleum based products for GM. He takes fuel samples, etc and tests them to see if fuel, etc. is a contributor of driveability problems in customers cars. He verified this as true as well.
I stand behind what I said. Neither I discredit anyone here. Maybe things are done different in your areas.
I don't intend to persist on this as like I said, I have been disagreed with on this many times, but always had apologies made to me afterwards.
Its ok to disagree.
in water are often used to monitor "groundwater contamination" from
gasoline "storage tanks or pipelines".
The gas is still the same composition. You add any more atoms of any element in the makeup of the compound and it is no longer gasoline as we know it and could not be run without possible harm to an internal combustion engine. The only thing that changes the anti knock properties and thus the "octane" rating are "additives" that stabilize undesires like water, which like I said is done in the storage tanks once they are filled. These additives do not change the chemical composition of gas. 3 major oil companies in this area all pump the exact same fuel into the storage tanks. You are correct that they go in separate tanks, but there is nothing separating the anti knock properties (octane) except what "additives" are added to stabilize the fuel, rid of water, and contaminates.
It costs less money to refine gas all the same than it does to make it, test it, and guarantee its anti knock properties separately.
I am also an acquaintance of a friend of a friend who does chemical testing of petroleum based products for GM. He takes fuel samples, etc and tests them to see if fuel, etc. is a contributor of driveability problems in customers cars. He verified this as true as well.
I stand behind what I said. Neither I discredit anyone here. Maybe things are done different in your areas.
I don't intend to persist on this as like I said, I have been disagreed with on this many times, but always had apologies made to me afterwards.
Its ok to disagree.
#33
07-13-1999, 01:00 AM
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The best information about gasoline on the internet is located at http://www.cs.ruu.nl/wais/html/na-di...line-faq/.html . If you have the time, it is an interesting and informative piece of reading material.
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MarkS
1999 F-150 XLT, 4x4, ORP, SC, SB, 5.4 Liter, 3.73ls, Husky Truck Box, Westin Chrome Nerf Bars, TOFF Spray-in Bedliner, FORD Blue-Oval Hitch Cover, & Superchip.
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MarkS
1999 F-150 XLT, 4x4, ORP, SC, SB, 5.4 Liter, 3.73ls, Husky Truck Box, Westin Chrome Nerf Bars, TOFF Spray-in Bedliner, FORD Blue-Oval Hitch Cover, & Superchip.
#34
07-13-1999, 05:47 PM
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Please don't anyone take this as a smart *** remark,it isn't meant to be, but What octane gas should I use when I finally get a Superchip? I live in California and premium gas can run anywhere from $1.35 up to $1.75.
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1989 F-150 XLT LARIAT 4x4 4.9L I6 5 speed manual tranny 3.55 gears K&N FIPK 3" Flowmaster.
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1989 F-150 XLT LARIAT 4x4 4.9L I6 5 speed manual tranny 3.55 gears K&N FIPK 3" Flowmaster.
#35
07-13-1999, 06:52 PM
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Fordfan: I use 92. I'm able to get it at a brand x (GoGas) gas station at cheaper prices than the major stations. But this station is also heavly visted by it's customers so the gas isn't "stale". I think you can even use 91 with the chip but it's performance will fall off. Use as high as you can 
to see the best bennifits from the chip.
[This message has been edited by Tina (edited 07-13-1999).]
to see the best bennifits from the chip.[This message has been edited by Tina (edited 07-13-1999).]
#36
07-13-1999, 09:16 PM
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BJohnston,
I would like to clarify one point. Some refiners do add octane improvers to their gas. Some Canada Refiners put MMT in their fuel to boost the octane numbers. This octane improver is legal in the US and Canada but Ford discourages the use of MMT.
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99 XLT SC, 4.6 L,MacNeil Window Deflectors, Ford-Duraliner Bedliner, K&N Filter, Westin Nerfs.
Family Hauler
I would like to clarify one point. Some refiners do add octane improvers to their gas. Some Canada Refiners put MMT in their fuel to boost the octane numbers. This octane improver is legal in the US and Canada but Ford discourages the use of MMT.
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99 XLT SC, 4.6 L,MacNeil Window Deflectors, Ford-Duraliner Bedliner, K&N Filter, Westin Nerfs.
Family Hauler
#37
07-14-1999, 12:04 AM
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I have been in the petroleum and refining business for 15 years. My wife is in the same field and sells the gasoline additive packages in question. MarkS has presented a very accurate description of the marketing of gasoline. Each and every tank of gasoline is blended to a specific octane #. The higher octane fuel costs more to make, so anyone familiar with business, knows you don't give away free product.
As far as additive packages go, they are government mandated. Their purpose is to keep the engine clean and efficient. They do this by adding a detergent. Detergents have a tendency to cause emulsion. The emulsion is broken by the addition of a demulsifier. Some of the higher-grade additive packages add a corrosion inhibitor.
The additive amount may be the same dosage in all grades at some of the "cheaper" stations. The majors usually increase the dosage with the increased octane, some premium products have 200% more additive than the regular grade.
The additive packages do not contain any octane improvers, the octane is determined at the refinery. This is not speculation on my part, this is the way this business is conducted.
If any of you have any particular questions regarding this subject, I will be happy to answer to the best of my ability.
I believe the original scope of this topic is what octane gas can we run?
I run Exxon premium and I am very satisfied with the performance. I might be able to get by with mid grade. I have not tried it. You have to try the fuel to determine which will work for you! I use Exxon premium because they make their own premium (others buy whatever is available, 93 octane is still 93 octane) and they add a high dosage of a good additive package.
I believe Basscat may be referring to the way octane content used to be determined. Many years ago Tetra-ethyl lead was added as an octane improver. That has since been outlawed, hence the term Un-leaded.
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99 SC 4X4 5.4 ORP 3.73LS Lariat Black over Gold on Tan.
Mods-K&N FIPK,Superchip,Dual Flowmasters,Westin Nerf Bars, 305/70/16 GY M/T's, Extang Black Max Tonneau
As far as additive packages go, they are government mandated. Their purpose is to keep the engine clean and efficient. They do this by adding a detergent. Detergents have a tendency to cause emulsion. The emulsion is broken by the addition of a demulsifier. Some of the higher-grade additive packages add a corrosion inhibitor.
The additive amount may be the same dosage in all grades at some of the "cheaper" stations. The majors usually increase the dosage with the increased octane, some premium products have 200% more additive than the regular grade.
The additive packages do not contain any octane improvers, the octane is determined at the refinery. This is not speculation on my part, this is the way this business is conducted.
If any of you have any particular questions regarding this subject, I will be happy to answer to the best of my ability.
I believe the original scope of this topic is what octane gas can we run?
I run Exxon premium and I am very satisfied with the performance. I might be able to get by with mid grade. I have not tried it. You have to try the fuel to determine which will work for you! I use Exxon premium because they make their own premium (others buy whatever is available, 93 octane is still 93 octane) and they add a high dosage of a good additive package.
I believe Basscat may be referring to the way octane content used to be determined. Many years ago Tetra-ethyl lead was added as an octane improver. That has since been outlawed, hence the term Un-leaded.
------------------
99 SC 4X4 5.4 ORP 3.73LS Lariat Black over Gold on Tan.
Mods-K&N FIPK,Superchip,Dual Flowmasters,Westin Nerf Bars, 305/70/16 GY M/T's, Extang Black Max Tonneau
#38
07-14-1999, 10:14 AM
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#39
07-14-1999, 11:13 AM
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Mike T.,
Will the SuperChip allow the computer to advance the spark only a set amount or does it advance until it detects spark knock? To put it another way, will running octane higher than 93 produce more power or is it just wasting money?
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98 F150 XLT SC 4.6 4x4 ORP,auto, 3.55 LS, Factory: towing pkg, fogs, steps, slider, remote entry; Hella driving lights, aux backup lights, K&N filter and airbox mod, Rhino lining, Roll-n-lock cover, SuperChip, fog light mod, AC mod, spare tire mount mod
Will the SuperChip allow the computer to advance the spark only a set amount or does it advance until it detects spark knock? To put it another way, will running octane higher than 93 produce more power or is it just wasting money?
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98 F150 XLT SC 4.6 4x4 ORP,auto, 3.55 LS, Factory: towing pkg, fogs, steps, slider, remote entry; Hella driving lights, aux backup lights, K&N filter and airbox mod, Rhino lining, Roll-n-lock cover, SuperChip, fog light mod, AC mod, spare tire mount mod
#40
07-14-1999, 01:17 PM
Former Sponsor
Dear Pgmr,
Anything above 94 is a waste. 92 octane is what is required to get the rated power increases, as the local premium fuel at the Superchips development facility is 92. 93 & 94 will get you a little bit more power, especially when it's cooler outside, but unless it happens to be cheap locally, I wouldn't spend money on anything more than the normal premium, which in most areas is 93. In areas where 91 is the octane for premium, that will work just fine.
I have to confess that I don't *ever* try to save money buying cheap gas, I steer clear of no-name brands especially. We recommend using Texaco, Amoco, and Citgo, in that order of preference. In the long run, if you keep your vehicles for any real length of time, buying the best gas that money can buy pays off in a cleaner fuel system. Less deposits on intake valves, etc., etc. Well worth the few pennies extra.
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Anything above 94 is a waste. 92 octane is what is required to get the rated power increases, as the local premium fuel at the Superchips development facility is 92. 93 & 94 will get you a little bit more power, especially when it's cooler outside, but unless it happens to be cheap locally, I wouldn't spend money on anything more than the normal premium, which in most areas is 93. In areas where 91 is the octane for premium, that will work just fine.
I have to confess that I don't *ever* try to save money buying cheap gas, I steer clear of no-name brands especially. We recommend using Texaco, Amoco, and Citgo, in that order of preference. In the long run, if you keep your vehicles for any real length of time, buying the best gas that money can buy pays off in a cleaner fuel system. Less deposits on intake valves, etc., etc. Well worth the few pennies extra.
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
#41
07-14-1999, 01:23 PM
Former Sponsor
Dear Fordfan,
The Superchip is programmed to be used with premium gas. The Superchip has been shown to provide significant improvement in fuel mileage, depending on your driving conditions. It's just a by-product of the optimized spark advacne curves on part-throttle, so your results will depend on how you drive primarily, and to a lesser extent on the quality of fuel you use, not just the octane rating, in other words. Most of our members here are reporting anywhere from 1.5 to 3.5 more mpg in their V-8 F-150's while using the Superchip. With our own vehicles, here, we average at least 3 more mpg, so our Superchips are actually paying us to use them!
On the other side of the coin, worst case scenario has shown that the additional fuel costs in places like California, where premium was as high as $2 per gallon earlier in the year, the added cost was only about $2 per 1000 miles.
Keep in mind that these are not *our* numbers, this has all come from the members right here who are using Superchips, so it's good data.
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Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
The Superchip is programmed to be used with premium gas. The Superchip has been shown to provide significant improvement in fuel mileage, depending on your driving conditions. It's just a by-product of the optimized spark advacne curves on part-throttle, so your results will depend on how you drive primarily, and to a lesser extent on the quality of fuel you use, not just the octane rating, in other words. Most of our members here are reporting anywhere from 1.5 to 3.5 more mpg in their V-8 F-150's while using the Superchip. With our own vehicles, here, we average at least 3 more mpg, so our Superchips are actually paying us to use them!
On the other side of the coin, worst case scenario has shown that the additional fuel costs in places like California, where premium was as high as $2 per gallon earlier in the year, the added cost was only about $2 per 1000 miles.
Keep in mind that these are not *our* numbers, this has all come from the members right here who are using Superchips, so it's good data.
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
#42
07-14-1999, 08:18 PM
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#43
07-16-1999, 06:58 PM
