Mighty Whitey,

Instead of spouting off and posting drive by’s, I invite you to use some critical thinking skills and reason with me why you feel something is incorrect. (Acts 18:19 KJV, Acts 17:11 KJV)

Let me start by saying this. You have painted me as a Liberal. If believing the Bible is fully the Inspired Word of God, and believing that it is infallible is liberal, I guess I wasn’t aware. Where I disagree with you is the statement that the KJV is the only correct translation. You, and Tex Mars, and Gail Riplinger, and anyone else that espouses this fail to see a few points. So, let’s look at some facts here.

There are approximately 5300 known early Greek manuscripts. The majority of those texts are in the Byzantine family. (There are 3 families. The Alexandrian, the Western, and the Byzantine. The Alexandrian text type ends about 700AD, the Western text was used mostly for the Latin translations such as Latin Vulgate, and the Byzantine text type ended about 1450.) Around 1000AD, many other manuscripts were destroyed by the followers of Mohammed, and the Roman Catholic Church in an attempt to wipe out Christianity, (Mohammed’s followers), and create a dependence on the Catholic Church for their interpretation of Scripture. Still, 5300 early manuscripts is a good number.

While there are many points to be made about the canonization of Scripture, I don’t feel you and I disagree on that point. So lets move up to the 1500s AD.

There was a very well educated man named Desiderius Erasmus. This man knew both the Latin and Greek languages. He decided to retranslate the Bible back into Greek, both from about 10 Byzantine Greek texts, and from the current period Latin Texts. This first edition was called the “Novum Instrumentum”. The second edition of that was changed to “Testamentum”. This “Testamentum” is what the translators used for the 1611 King James Version translation. The “Testamentum” became what we know as the “Textus Receptus”. Now sit down, because this might not bode well with you, but Erasmus was considered a “LIBERAL” theologian. This was somewhat due to the fact that he was re-translating the “Septuagint”, which was Jerome’s work.

What the King James translators didn’t have was any Alexandrian texts. They also only had about 10 of the Byzantine texts. Many Byzantine texts that were shown to be older translations then the ones they used have been discovered, or re-discovered over the years since 1611. Even a few of the Byzantine texts they had showed textual variations. Not any variations that changed what the text said, but rather how the text said it. Today, we have the ability to look at all 5300 known manuscripts. The majority, and a huge majority it is, have textual variations from the “Textus Receptus” used to translate the KJV.

Let’s look at one example. Turn in your KJV to 1st John 3:1 and read it. Here it is if you don’t have your Bible handy.

“Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God; therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.”

Now, let’s read from the NASB.

“See how great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; AND SUCH WE ARE. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.”

So, why would the translators remove the words “AND SUCH WE ARE” from the KJV? That phrase is in ALL of the earliest BYZANTINE manuscripts, and Alexandrian manuscripts. It’s even in the manuscripts that the KJV translators did use.

.................................................. ..........................

 

Here’s the answer. It’s not a conspiracy. It a simple MISTAKE. In the final translation of the KJV, the scribe ACCIDENTALLY looked at a similar word a couple words downstream of where this verse is, and continued copying from there. It was never caught until a re-examination of the text many years later. Does it make the KJV a wrong translation? No. It’s still a faithful translation missing that verse. How do we know this? Because we have the 5300 other manuscripts to compare it too.

This same principle is why the other translations can be trusted with some exceptions. There are those privately commissioned translations that were done with purposeful agendas to change some things to the single author’s, or organization’s interpretations. Such an example is the New World Translation that the Watchtower Society distributes. But this version is known and proven many times over to be a corruption.

Not the case for the NIV, NASB, or even the NKJV. They can withstand a diligent comparison of those older manuscripts, and the KJV can too. The textual variations are all known to any of those who study and read Greek.

What’s more, is that the NIV in 8 different verses proclaims Jesus as God. The KJV only does this 4 times. It’s because the NIV has been translated from Manuscripts dating back further than those of the KJV.

Sheesh, this is a terribly long post already. I’d much rather email you some more examples of stuff like “harmonization” of certain passages such as Ephesians 1:2 , and discuss the Grandville Sharp rule with the definite article. Actually, let’s do that one real quick.

Titus 2:13, KJV
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.”

The KJV separates God and Jesus Christ as if we will see God as a separate person from Jesus on that day. God is called “the great God”, and Jesus is called our saviour. Does that make sense in context of the entire passage?

Now read it in the NASB.

“looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great GOD AND SAVIOR, Christ Jesus;”

Because of the Grandville Sharp rule in translating Greek, which was not discovered until AFTER the KJV was translated, the context changes dramatically. Now, because the two nouns are connected by “and”, Jesus is referred to as BOTH our God and Savior. Again, it’s not a show stopper for the KJV, but this is where a modern translation is more accurate.

One question for you might be this also. If only 1-3 percent of the world’s population speaks English, then does the other 97 percent have to learn King James English to be saved? I haven’t seen King James Chinese.

Ok. That’s enough for now. If you have reasonable objections to any of this, please explain them rationally. It’s a respectful and adult way of having a discussion. Admittedly, sometimes I fly off the handle too, but I’m offering to dialogue in a Godly manner. Are you?

 

Religion give me a break.

 

I always reach for my Ryrie StudyBible Expanded Edition which is NIV.

However, I also carry a 40 yr old KJV as a backup,
just in case I have to throw some Thee's and Thou's down on somebody.

 

Alright I have to say this... With the biggest smile on my face....

You have been reading these various threads for the last week or so.... Your a regular here too.

And you couldn't figure this out by the title of the thread? LOL

If my dad were here and I had said something like that, then that is one of those times that my dad would have looked at me and said.. "Well DUH, Son!" He probably then would have followed that by saying "Use some common sence boy.

That would be my POPS! Pretty smart man he is.

 

My mom and dad died 10 months apart and be devoted Christan's did not help them one bit. Dad dies of brain cancer, mom died from a broken heart 10 months later and they were both very smart except the 20% they donated each payday to the church whom were mysteriously absent during his sickness and my moms broken heart. All this crap about god jesus is just that crap!!!. Its a crutch used for the weak minded. I am not smiling one bit.

regards Jim

 

My post had nothing to do with any of that... I can some what sympathise (sp?) with the pain of your loss. I don't know it personnally because I have not been there yet. I have also seen that same thing happen to many people at many different Churches over the years. Same complaints from some of the survivors of the deceased and everything. The Church involves people which people have human nature. The Churches actions are perfectly normal typical and practically expected of human nature as unfortunate as they are. As well as your reaction to thier actions. It is all text book human psychology. (that is not an excuse for the Churches actions but instead a fact.) The Church (which is a group of people) and Religion (which is a belief) are 2 seperate items entirely.

What is the foundation for your relegion? (Which you are religious because your belief is that God was not and is not with your parents even though they believed) I guess I don't understand the backing for this relegion.

God never promised an easy life to anyone and he makes that very clear that there will be trials and tribulations daily to his belivers. He does promise to always be there with his belivers during these times. He doesn't promise that the Church will be there, but that he as in God himslef will be there. He also does not promise tomarrow to anyone, he makes that very clear too. Death is immanent to all of us.

With that in mind your anger torwards religion appears that it could be unfocused, unfair, misdirected, and based on misinformation. Torwards the Church would be more understandable, but as previously mentioned that is seperate entirely from religion.

My original post was about the fact that you have been here, seen the other threads, then come into this one and act like you didn't know that's what it would be about. Again with all the love in my heart I want to say. What did you think it was going to be about? It is the equivelant of walking into a state or federal forest with a brown leather coat on during deer season. Then saying, Whoa.. theres people shooting guns here. Whats going on?

 

Nice summary 1969Mach, it goes along with what I said earlier about interpretation. Not necessarily mistranslated on purpose, but still... Obviously "Thou Shalt Not Kill" should say "Thou Shalt Not Murder", but if you read the whole book, you would get that. Your example here is great.

Opening a thread is a choice and there is no way you could not understand what this thread is about. If you don't like the party, don't show up. Coming here and whining about the thread is worse than Whitey, he's at least talking about the subject.

 

Lets face it religion kills people for their beliefs period it has and always will.
In my mind its useless unless a crutch is needed. car bombers, the Irish, protestants and Catholics, Muslim's it goes on and on. Way to much death associated with it. I am sorry to type this but i was a devoted person made my Communion, conformation etc... went to church but then my eyes were opened and realism was right in front of me.

 

Like I said everyone is religious even yourself. You apperently dont even realize that you are, because that would mean that you were calling yourself useless on purpose in your previous post and I dont think that you did that intentionally. You are crutching on the fact that everything that you have been taught can't be true because a just God would not allow this to happen to you. Every one belives in something and you have stated your beliefs. So you are not the exception, you are religious. Religious or religion does not have anything to do with God or church. Though for some reason God and Buddah are the 2 most commonly associated and confused with religion as a defenition of the word. Which neither one is in any way the definition of the word.


On the lighter side I shall jest now:

retraction.... I wanted to jest here but I dont think you are in the state of mind to handle it properly right now.

 

Now we're getting somewhere , Compare The KJB with the NIV ( Non
Inspired Version owned by Zondervon ) on these ...

I John 5:7

Acts 8:37

Isa. 14:12 - 15

Just a few , I have dozens and dozens more. Go ahead , I dare you.

Remember God said ( Not Mighty Whitey ) ... Rev. 22:18 - 19 and Matt.
5:18 ... Westcat and Hort " the author of those perversions " are guilty
of both of those commanments.

All that typing and still no answer for why the KJB is the only one that is
free to print without leagal problems. I'll tell you , it's the only one that God
Almighty has perserved ... Psalm 12.

Why would the NIV take Lucifers name out of Isa. 14:12 and replace it
with " morning star " , when Rev. 22:16 says Jesus is The Morning Star ?

If that was all I found ( it's not ) that would be enough for me to trash it !

 

You all are trying WAY too hard to make a point out of pointless dribble..
" this book is better than that one" " this one can be gotten for free "
" this one had a misprint " this one says this, this part says that "
Please , Stop already. God is always there, whether or not he's there for
you or I on any particular day and time is well , up to God. I bet he was
bummed when he realized three quarters of the planet couldn't even read with comprehension which is why you got ALL the different religions and their
multiple versions of writings. He created everyone for a purpose and I doubt that purpose was for everyone to fight over nonsense.
Here's an example, He creates beautiful people of ALL colors ( races ) but
a whole bunch of folk can't get along with one, never mind multiple.

He said, you said, you didn't like what I said, that's what she said,
give me a break .. " Justin Seine from the song Psychological Warfare"

Good luck with those books and remember this, Father Bill from the church
down the street is really nobody's father at all ..........
And you can thank God for that ....

 

Great posts this time around. Mach, I've always favored the KJV but all your information was great. Like I said before I didn't fit in with my Pentecostal family cause I always questioned things. I don't doubt and I have faith but I want a reasonable expectation for consistency.

Buck, I do understand your dislike or contempt for religion based on your experiences. Having never walked in your shoes I would not condemn your views. THat said Christianity and religion in general isn't necessarily a crutch. I'm a strong free thinking individual that looks for a deeper understanding of things. I look at how designed this world and universe is and I have to belief it is not coincidence. Some people in a church are weak and need the faith or people as a crutch but just because someone has faith in Christ doesn't mean they are weak minded. Perhaps your parents faith gave them the strength and reassurance that in the end eternity was waiting for both of them. Perhaps your mother's faith kept her going those 10 months through her insurmountable grief. If nothing else it had to comfort them and that is certainly not a waste.

 

As the flood waters continued to rise, Mighty Whitey climbed onto the roof of his house clutching to his King James Version. Some men in a row boat passed by and offered him a seat, Mighty Whitey glanced down at his KJV and shook his head, "God will take care of me." he said. Later, a Coast Guard rescue craft spotted Mighty Whitey and pulled up close to take him onboard. Again Mighty Whitey declined. Showing the KJV to the Coast guard crew, he cried out, "See, I don't need you." Late in the afternoon, with only the peak of the roof exposed, a Rescue helicoptor attempted to lasso Mighty Whitey with a harness but, he was able to beat it off with his KJV.
Darkness fell, the waters rose.
Mighty Whitey succumbed and his King James Version floated away.

Mighty Whitey appeared before his Creator and cried out, "Yea varily varily I say unto you, I kept thou Word in accordance with the King James Version and yet thou let the waters take thee?"

To which the Creator replied:
"Cut me some slack, Jack!. I sent you two boats and a helicoptor!"

 

Some people confuse the words for the message. I can assure you, God doesn't give two rats' asses if you read the NKJV, The Amplified, or any other translation/version. The point is, God sent Christ as payment for our sins...as a method by which God can restore the relationship started when He created Adam. Whether you drink, cuss, or play the lotto is irrellevant to the things that matter. God is MUCH bigger than the Bible - and as such, won't be limited by what we think we read.

Cheers!