[QUOTE]Originally posted by feefer
[B]Hi NaviMan,

I can understand that design flaws occur, and problems will result. I can accept that we don't live in an ideal world.

But what I have a beef with is the way Ford refuses to deal with customers in this matter in an ethical way, i.e. their slimeball tactics of denying the obvious, and hoping it'll all just blow away without any need to address it. That's the real disgrace, and Chevy's customer service policies, whether any better or worse, is not a mitigating factor for Ford.....

Chris

PS Here's two other threads on this same subject that have popped up, and contain good info on the issue:

https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...threadid=96467
my thoughts exactly. Every Ford dealership ive talked to in my town has told me theyve seen this prob on quite a few f150's and expeditions. They need to step up to the plate and deal with this prob .Im in the process right now of trying to get ford to pay for some of the new motor im having to put in my truck. I think thats the very least they can do considering all the trouble ive gone through the past year . my truck has left me stranded four times now because of this. I know chevy has there probs also but right now im really fed up with ford.

 

Well, today I joinded the club. Thankfully it got me back from a 3 hour drive before letting go. I am thinking about having the helicoil done if the dealerships won't help out. Do I have to pull the head? It's the tell-tale #3 cylinder. Couldn't find the plug or most of the coil pack boot. Destroyed the coil pack for sure. Are there any shops in the metro detroit area that are good? dealers? Thanks for the help. Oh I have a 99 with almost 98,000.

 

The helicoil is a temp fix at best.I tried it twice in two diff cylinders and both of them only lasted 2 months max. Because the heads are aluminum im guessing thats why the helicoils arent lasting. I just put a whole new engine in my truck cause i got fed up with the bown plugs.. good luck to you

 

Woodster, why would the helicoil fail? The same reason the original plug failed?

Has anyone else had good or bad experiences with the helicoil?

 

Is this problem unique to engines with coil over plug system ???
Or is this also happening with engines equipped with plug wires.

 

I'm confused why the helicoil wouldn't work. It looks like the lightning guys use it all the time and i would bet their motors are run under higher compression and extremes considering some of them run nitrous, boost the supercharger, etc.

Does anyone know what size or the model of helicoil I'd need?

 

Hi

There may/maynot be some helpful info. here?

www.locknstich.com/inserts.htm

Good luck...OT

 

Bad link, Old Timer. Try this one, folks:

http://www.locknstitch.com/inserts.htm

From their site:

We have also created spark plug thread repair inserts for both cast iron and aluminum cylinder heads._ This is a very good way to repair damaged threads and small cracks at the same time._ These inserts have a large enough outside diameter to repair holes that have previous failed thread repairs done with standard coils and inserts._ The spark plug repair kits include special tooling to make installation in cylinder heads fast and precise._

The inserts for aluminum cylinder heads are made of hard-anodized aluminum to solve the problem of spark plug overheating due to the difference in thermal expansion of steel inserts in aluminum heads._ The same insert works with both tapered and flat gasket type spark plugs.

If you didn't read the entire thread, then that last paragraph explains quite simply why the cylinder head threads are failing: "difference in thermal expansion of steel plugs vs aluminum threads". Which is stronger? Steel.

The end of story (and the end of your threads)....

My truck idles runs rough after whatever type of insert they used for the repair (steel or aluminum), and it seems to run even rougher now than immediately after the repair was completed. This makes me think I paid $2K for a temp fix (like Woodster), or a repair that resulted in a residual compression leak? Wrong type of insert used? Who knows.....

Thanks to Ford once again for the assistance in solving the problem, and continuing to ignore the issue.

Someone suggested this: purchase aftermarket non-Ford performance heads (presumably with better design, improved horsepower) and use those instead. A performance head SHOULD be up to the challenge (it couldn't be any worse than Ford's flawed design, could it?). I wish I had known of that option instead, when the shop had the engine disassembled: I'd be done with it by now.....

Any recommendations for manufacturers of cylinder heads from you guys who know performance parts and mods?

Chris

 

I'm guessing here but I don't think there are any non-ford heads as replacements on the market.

It's not like the old days where Ford used the 302 block for decades. There were so many of the same v-8 blocks around that making aftermarket heads is economically feasable.

I would try to pickup a fried 4.6L V-8 out of a 99' or newer Mustang GT. In 99' they improved the cylinder head ports/chamber for more HP.

Anyhow, try to pick up a couple of those heads, or some heads from a wrecker's, or use your own heads. Have the spark plug holes welded by someone who knows what they are doing and remachined for longer threads in the hole as I mentioned before.

I think all the heads on the 4.6/5.4's are aluminum. Even the 32v heads on the new Mustang SVT Cobra, although the new supercharged Cobra's block is cast iron to handle the extra power output. It might be worthwhile to check into the thread depth on the 32v heads? Perhaps they were smart and fixed it on those heads? Hate to think what a pair of those is worth new/used.

Here's the pdf brochure of the car: http://www.svt.ford.com/flash/svt_pd...a_brochure.pdf (big download)
We know that steel and aluminum have different expansion but I used to drag race VW Beetles back in the day with over 3 times factory HP and no one ever heard of a spark plug being spit out. It comes down to design.

I have an article in March 2002 VWTrends Magazine showing VW type4 cylinder head repairs for cracks in the combustion chamber (slightly more complicated than repairing a plug hole). The company that did the repair and picture expose is:
Headflow Masters
2466-F S. Santa Fe Ave.
Vista, CA 92084
tel (888) 340-8979 (tollfree I guess)
Ph/Fax (760) 727-1827

Didn't find a website for them, they must be around, found a few pages with www.google.ca such as http://www.importdrag.com/racers_taobyaleman.shtml
------------------------------------------------------
VWTrends Cylinder Head Repair jpeg images:
http://www.ferlowbrothers.com/vwheadrepair1.jpg
http://www.ferlowbrothers.com/vwheadrepair2.jpg
http://www.ferlowbrothers.com/vwheadrepair3.jpg

Download and view them with a photo editor so you can read it.
I'm not going to leave them on the server forever so get it now!

 

Got this off of the flattechrate.com site, looks very plausible - has anyone been checking for coolant - this would be even more plausible if the intercooler on the L's sprouts a leak:

Abarth, the most likely cause in your particular problem would be the heater core tube that is positioned directly over the #4 cylinder, (last one on passenger side), have you ever had the coil for that cylinder replaced? .. My guess is yes, because of a missfire problem.

What happens is the coolant seeps from the pipe down onto the coil and shorts the coil, but does not end their, the coolant then seeps down in and around the plug itself, and sets up a basin of collection for the coolant.

Now lets mix ethyleneglycol with aluminum head and steel spark plug, and what do we get from this magical combination?. CORROSSION of the weakest link, being the aluminum threads of the spark plug hole in the head.

Takes a while for this extreme condition to occur due to the sealing surface of the plug to head, but can and has happened.

Don't take rocket science to figure it out, just a little knowledge in metalergy.

Ford knows this to be a problem, but as of yet, short of a class action lawsuit, the problem remains the same.

I have noted that they have rerouted those heater core pipes, but that's not much consolation to those who still have the original setup.

Should be a recall on them but they have not written one for this OBVIOUS design flaw.

Good luck, and wish you the best in fighting corporate policy, We at FRT have been trying for a very long time.

*Disclaimer*
This has been a commentary of my own observations, and should not be construed otherwise.
--------------------
Robert Lookhoff
FRT Staff Tech
robertl@flatratetech.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 732 | Registered: Jun 2002

 

Sounds like an acceptable theory, especially if Ford neglected to use anti-seize compound on the plug threads when they originally went in.

You'd think for such a water/coolant contamination that they would of tried to design some sort of a drilled hole that could drain each plug hole. Probably not possible though with regards to the coolant passages, valve train components, etc. Would be even harder to do in a 4 valve/cyl head.

Besides dealing with the coolant leak by placing some sort of a shield between the hoses and the heads, I'd still have my plug holes welded and remachined for longer threads while they're off the motor anyway.

One thing I don't understand is the melted or destroyed outer electrode, which seems to suggest a mixture problem. Although it might be possible to explain if the threads start leaking gases they will certainly pull in extra air on an intake stroke, theoretically leaning out the mixture, perhaps enough to melt the plug tip.

 

I would be curious to know in what year they did the re-design.

 

In more ways than one, I just joined the club; both the forum and I had the plug blow out of my Expedition a couple of days ago upon startup one morning.

'98 Expedition, 5.4 engine, 86,000 miles

I was quoted $4,000 for a new head or $750 for the helicoil. $4,000 is out of the question on a car this old so I had them put in the helicoil. Hopefully it'll be ready today.

I also have a 1990 Toyota 4-Runner that I bought new in 1990 with 216,000 miles on it. It finally broke a valve spring at 215,000 miles so I had to do some spring/piston work and had the head milled for about $1,300. Now it's good for another 100,000 miles.

I needed a bigger car than the 4-Runner for all my camping and fishing needs and the Expedition was the only one out there big enough. Today there is the Sequoia.

I'm going to be beating Ford's door down for some kind of break on the price for this repair. If that fails I'll be so pissed that my newly repaired Expedition will be traded in for a Sequoia. I don't expect a company to warrant a car forever but plugs shouldn't blow out and 86,000 is not a lot of miles. I had thought about the 2003 Expedition as a replacement soon but I doubt the head design had changed............

........ so for me it's back to a reliable car, the Toyota.

 

"Members" of the club:

I posted a while back that my 99 f-250 blew a plug and that the dealer was replacing the head. Well, I got it back a while ago and thought i'd report the costs:
Head (reman.) 1781.62
coil assy. 89.21
gaskets, bolts, etc. 185.79
labor 1086.30

I asked for the old head, but they said I'd need to pay the core charge, it was $700.00 so I took a few pics of the damage instead. I had 104K miles when it happened, and some have tried to make the case of "how long should warranty apply", well to me this is'nt a high mileage issue, as a man I work with who has an f-150 with only 10K miles just had it happen to him the other day !! I'm not done with pressing Ford for reimbursement either, just have'nt had time to persue. Because I use the truck for work I needed to rent a van while it was in the shop, the total outlay for this debacle was $4,390. I'm now looking to trade it in for a '03 f-350 with 6.0 deisel, as I have no confidence in this engine.

Regards,

fixit

 

fixit - Your friend who just had this happen to his F-150 @ 10,000 miles; can you please provide some more information about his case - such as what year truck, what size engine (and any mods he did), is Ford covering it under the 3 year/36000 mile warrenty, etc...

Thanks,

Steve