Blown Plugs, damaged cylinder head
#61
10-16-2002, 10:15 PM
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BEC308 Just remember on who's site what country you leave your lame *** comments.
who makes the fastes production truck in the world, where are most f150 engines made?
Let's guess the american muscle truck has a Canadian engine. I guess all the us magazines should say the Canadian muscle truck - the whole truck is built in Canada (o sorry I guess I should have said the truck is built in Canada, not the whole truck is built in Canada)
BEC308
Are all Canadians this dense?
Black f150 offroad
Do all americans have their head up ther A$$
BEC308
no relevance to the issue at hand ....
I agree
who makes the fastes production truck in the world, where are most f150 engines made?
Let's guess the american muscle truck has a Canadian engine. I guess all the us magazines should say the Canadian muscle truck - the whole truck is built in Canada (o sorry I guess I should have said the truck is built in Canada, not the whole truck is built in Canada)
BEC308
Are all Canadians this dense?
Black f150 offroad
Do all americans have their head up ther A$$
BEC308
no relevance to the issue at hand ....
I agree
Last edited by black f150 offroad; 10-16-2002 at 10:20 PM.
#63
10-16-2002, 10:26 PM
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no I made a post, you are ingnorant for not letting one have a view that differs from yourself
I simply made a statement in retaliation to you.
Not only do I feel you are ignorant on this topic (lack of knowlege) but that your are close minded which causes you to attack anyone with a differing opinion
I simply made a statement in retaliation to you.
Not only do I feel you are ignorant on this topic (lack of knowlege) but that your are close minded which causes you to attack anyone with a differing opinion
#64
10-16-2002, 10:46 PM
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10-17-2002, 12:15 AM
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Originally posted by black f150 offroad
82,000 miles , warrenty ends at 36,000 miles - yet ford should still warrenty it? Your monitor say it fails after a year and the warrenty is only for a year - should the manufacture pay to fix it?
If vehicle is covered from manufacture defects for 36,000 miles, sure its a crappy design but not all trucks have had the problem, what if your water pump leaks should that be covered? where is the line drawn on what should still be warrenty? If a truck has only 40,000 miles should it still be covered? should it run out at 100,000 miles or at a 1,000,000 miles? Should recalls go back to older vehicles (say 65 mustang) to mandate better fuel tank designs? should they recall old vheilces to install abs or airbags?
I agree its a crappy design but in the end someone will pay, who do u think payed for the radiators? us the consumer so I guess the question is should we all pay or only the ones that have the problem after warrenty? If under warrenty then I say it should be repaired for free but if warrenty has ended than the owner should be responsible not all the consumers who may be interested in buying a ford product.
There is also another option don't buy a ford - not meant to be a smart a$$ but its true, in the end ford will have to design a better product - my family always had fords currenty 7 and we have had more problems with the 5.4 than we ever had with any 302 - so much for computer design enginering.
Recall why? is it a safety concern? an enviromental concern? Product concern? (how many vehicle have the problem?)
If ford recalls it or atleast helps the customers out on afterwarrenty repairs thats good for the owner, but just remember in the end the consumer pays so personally I believe the potential to effect all vehicles doesn't justify every vehicle be recalled but if ford was willing to help those that were affected that would be a step in the right direction but then comes the question of how long should they help for? and what type of help should they provide?
Can plug looseing and blowing out be considered normal wear like piston rings, tires, etc
82,000 miles , warrenty ends at 36,000 miles - yet ford should still warrenty it? Your monitor say it fails after a year and the warrenty is only for a year - should the manufacture pay to fix it?
If vehicle is covered from manufacture defects for 36,000 miles, sure its a crappy design but not all trucks have had the problem, what if your water pump leaks should that be covered? where is the line drawn on what should still be warrenty? If a truck has only 40,000 miles should it still be covered? should it run out at 100,000 miles or at a 1,000,000 miles? Should recalls go back to older vehicles (say 65 mustang) to mandate better fuel tank designs? should they recall old vheilces to install abs or airbags?
I agree its a crappy design but in the end someone will pay, who do u think payed for the radiators? us the consumer so I guess the question is should we all pay or only the ones that have the problem after warrenty? If under warrenty then I say it should be repaired for free but if warrenty has ended than the owner should be responsible not all the consumers who may be interested in buying a ford product.
There is also another option don't buy a ford - not meant to be a smart a$$ but its true, in the end ford will have to design a better product - my family always had fords currenty 7 and we have had more problems with the 5.4 than we ever had with any 302 - so much for computer design enginering.
Recall why? is it a safety concern? an enviromental concern? Product concern? (how many vehicle have the problem?)
If ford recalls it or atleast helps the customers out on afterwarrenty repairs thats good for the owner, but just remember in the end the consumer pays so personally I believe the potential to effect all vehicles doesn't justify every vehicle be recalled but if ford was willing to help those that were affected that would be a step in the right direction but then comes the question of how long should they help for? and what type of help should they provide?
Can plug looseing and blowing out be considered normal wear like piston rings, tires, etc
I'd ask all you guys to delete all those nonsense posts, as all it does is clutters up the thread for those who want to get to the info. I'm asking nice-like, pretty please, before I have to open a can of whoopa$$.
Black F-150, you ask alot of good questions, and raise some interesting points. I don't know if I can answer all of them, but I'll try.
(Oh FWIW, my truck was 7,000 miles out of extended warranty: I paid the extra $1k for the coverage. Perhaps you didn't read this entire thread, as I posted that information on the 1st page.)
The rules used to discriminate between problems that are considered normal wear and tear and a factory defect, or those subject to a recall, TSB, or warranty repair, are very complicated. Spend some time reading at the NHTSA website, as they've got lots of information on this exact topic (of course, you have different laws and rules up in Canada, and some things that have been ruled to be a problem in one country may not be considered as such in another).
But you're right: someone ends up paying for defects and for the inevitable repairs. The owners who get stonewalled from Ford obviously pay for it, but Ford loses sales. And in the event it IS determined to be a factory defect or such, then Ford is the clear loser: they have to pay for repair AND have alienated customers in the process.
BTW, a recall at this point WOULD not cover me: it's too late for me, as the NHTSA website clearly says that repairs made before a recall is announced are NOT covered, and the manufacturer does NOT have to pay retroactively for the repair. They MAY choose to, but they don't have to.
In other words, I'm doing this for the sake of those who haven't been effected yet. And some of you are too dense to understand it.
As it stands right now, Ford is doing NOTHING about the situation. No investigation of the problem or a fix, nothing. Nada....
Could this also be a problem with the new Ford vehicles hitting the road? Possibly. The problem might effect the 2004 F-150's, for all we know. A continuance of such flaws will bring Ford to it's knees.
My goal is that Ford needs to be compelled to acknowledge the problem and investigate, to design and offer a fix, and at least warn current owners of the situation. As I've stated, there may be interventions that could be undertaken to prevent the head threads from getting stripped, and waiting until after the plug blows is a bit too late.... Remember, the blown plug can cause more damage to the engine, besides just stripping the head threads.
Oh, your cylinder head problem has been investigated, and there's a TSB issued by Ford that adresses the problem.
Chris
PS below is information from Mark Ward, a Master Ford Tech: check out his website, http://www.FlatRateTech.com , for a sobering look at the state of affairs at FoMoCo.......
posted 16 October 2002 01:16 AM ___ __ __ __ __ _ _ __
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I too, have seen this many times in the dealer.....and most have the original plugs still in them, with low mileage.....The V10 is the most common. I have never seen this concern after the plugs have been serviced, but from what I hear, some have.
I believe there is one way to properly avoid this other than the lengthening of the threads....and that is to manufacture the heads with a "Keen Insert".....they are the toughest in the industry and are used in many government machining processes where aluminum is involved. My father is a retired aerospace journeymen machinist, and after 30yrs in the trade with Boeing, I tend to believe him when it comes to this. They can withstand the heating and cooling processes....and "do not" come out....they will strip the plug long before the threads in the head even think about being damaged from cross-threading.
Yes, this is rapidly developing issue with the modular engines, and unfortunately, see little assistance from Ford in this matter in the future....
--------------------
Mark Ward
Publisher, FlatRateTech.com
Master Ford Technician
www.flatratetech.com
Last edited by feefer; 10-17-2002 at 01:19 AM.
#66
10-17-2002, 12:30 PM
Black F-150 off road:
While i'm "new" to this forum and the spark plug syndrome I believe in standing up to what is right and just. After finding out about what happened to the engine I asked some questions to the service dept. at the Ford dealer. The service writer I spoke with said he had been there 3 months and I was the third one he'd seen! I explained that I have driven probably over 500K miles in ford trucks in the last 15 years and had never had this problem before (I worked in a service station for several years prior to driving Fords and had never seen this occur on any vehicle with "factory installed plugs") His response was for me to contact Ford customer service, which I did, their response (Ford) was the same to me as the others who have posted "sorry, but there is no program in place to assist you". I was not happy with their answer so I decided to see if I was the only one (or very few) with this situation. After doing a search on the internet it is apparent i'm not alone, although how many are there really? I don't expect certain things to last indefinately, just what is expected for their design. and this particular design (spark plug threaded in a head) should last a long time or the consumer should be made aware of what needs to be done (and when) to help ensure satisfactory performance. If, in my case (104K miles), this only occured after high mileage (what is high mileage today?) and I was the only one, i'd have nothing to complain about, but it appears to happen at all different mileages, so this is not a "it served it's useful lifespan" issue. What would make me happy? Let's start here, How many reported cases are there? Was there a plug change? and why? What is Fords criteria for service bulletins? recalls? I'm not looking for a free ride due to my negligence, but for a company to back up with action a situation that would appear to me to need serious addressing.
Paul
While i'm "new" to this forum and the spark plug syndrome I believe in standing up to what is right and just. After finding out about what happened to the engine I asked some questions to the service dept. at the Ford dealer. The service writer I spoke with said he had been there 3 months and I was the third one he'd seen! I explained that I have driven probably over 500K miles in ford trucks in the last 15 years and had never had this problem before (I worked in a service station for several years prior to driving Fords and had never seen this occur on any vehicle with "factory installed plugs") His response was for me to contact Ford customer service, which I did, their response (Ford) was the same to me as the others who have posted "sorry, but there is no program in place to assist you". I was not happy with their answer so I decided to see if I was the only one (or very few) with this situation. After doing a search on the internet it is apparent i'm not alone, although how many are there really? I don't expect certain things to last indefinately, just what is expected for their design. and this particular design (spark plug threaded in a head) should last a long time or the consumer should be made aware of what needs to be done (and when) to help ensure satisfactory performance. If, in my case (104K miles), this only occured after high mileage (what is high mileage today?) and I was the only one, i'd have nothing to complain about, but it appears to happen at all different mileages, so this is not a "it served it's useful lifespan" issue. What would make me happy? Let's start here, How many reported cases are there? Was there a plug change? and why? What is Fords criteria for service bulletins? recalls? I'm not looking for a free ride due to my negligence, but for a company to back up with action a situation that would appear to me to need serious addressing.
Paul
#67
10-17-2002, 03:03 PM
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I see what message blackf150 is trying to say. I tend to agree with him. In the end you have a choice to buy a different truck. So many people here complain about their ford.....get extended warrenty, get Ford to pay for it, get ford to buy it back. Then what do they do ? Buy another Ford.... Well, that makes a lot of sense. If you buy another mfg only then will Ford get the message.
I'm not knocking Ford or their products. I've owned 2 of the current stlye F150's, a 97 and a 2000. My brother had a 87, my dad a 98 and a 2002. I have 2 uncles and 2 cousins that have one each, and my best friend owns one. Out of all these trucks the only one that has had a major repair is my friends had the rear end go out at 65k miles. Ford covered it......he did not have extended warrenty. I think Ford, and a good dealer will stand by the product. These troubles with the blown plugs are not as widespread as you are making them.
Why are you changing plugs before 100k anyhow?
Just my thoughts......
-jeff b.
I'm not knocking Ford or their products. I've owned 2 of the current stlye F150's, a 97 and a 2000. My brother had a 87, my dad a 98 and a 2002. I have 2 uncles and 2 cousins that have one each, and my best friend owns one. Out of all these trucks the only one that has had a major repair is my friends had the rear end go out at 65k miles. Ford covered it......he did not have extended warrenty. I think Ford, and a good dealer will stand by the product. These troubles with the blown plugs are not as widespread as you are making them.
Why are you changing plugs before 100k anyhow?
Just my thoughts......
-jeff b.
#68
10-17-2002, 04:29 PM
Farmboy:
I see where black F-150 is coming from too, and I certainly understand and respect your points of view. I very well may buy another manufacturers vehicle next time (and if others did it as well, maybe they'd get the message). Things go wrong on occasion and I accept that, if this is not "as big" as some of you think, then show me the numbers! Ford's response when I asked them about "the numbers" was to go to the NTHSB site and look for similar complaints, I did, and it's not easy to find them all. Consider this, how many people have computers? internet access?, have the time? think it will even matter? know what the problem even is? etc. Maybe we should each call every Ford dealer within a 50 mile radius and see if they will tell us on how many occasions this has occured. We can post our results here and see if it warrants further attention? When I tell people what happened alot say they heard of that happening to "someone". I'm a fact person, and the numbers can speak for themselves, lets' see what they really are (if anyone knows).
Paul
PS my plugs are factory original at 104K miles
I see where black F-150 is coming from too, and I certainly understand and respect your points of view. I very well may buy another manufacturers vehicle next time (and if others did it as well, maybe they'd get the message). Things go wrong on occasion and I accept that, if this is not "as big" as some of you think, then show me the numbers! Ford's response when I asked them about "the numbers" was to go to the NTHSB site and look for similar complaints, I did, and it's not easy to find them all. Consider this, how many people have computers? internet access?, have the time? think it will even matter? know what the problem even is? etc. Maybe we should each call every Ford dealer within a 50 mile radius and see if they will tell us on how many occasions this has occured. We can post our results here and see if it warrants further attention? When I tell people what happened alot say they heard of that happening to "someone". I'm a fact person, and the numbers can speak for themselves, lets' see what they really are (if anyone knows).
Paul
PS my plugs are factory original at 104K miles
#69
10-17-2002, 06:50 PM
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Fixit,
I think you're on the right track. One thing you need to realize, is that the burden of proof is on you, the consumer. Ford won't roll over and do the investigation against them. Ford builds a vehicle and provides a warranty within a specified time. If the malfuntion occurs after the expiration of the warranty, then, unfortunately it's the consumers responsibility. If any of you think this is a design flaw, then you need do some investigation and show proof. I've only read a few things on here from mechanics who have voiced their opinion as to what the problem is, but that isn't very strong proof. Although I have read on here where others have had similar problems, I have never seen any actual numbers of problems and total vehicles sold. Someone will also have to start documenting specific information such as type of vehicle, engine size, year, which plug was blown out, how many miles, have the plugs ever been serviced and at what mileage etc. You need to build an actual case if you expect Ford to do anything. I know someone said they would build and maintain a website. That sounds like a great idea. This will take time and money. How much effort you are willing to put into this problem might help dtermine what results you can expect? I wish all you luck and maybe something can be resolved, but don't expect Ford (or any car manufacturer) to make it easy.
I think you're on the right track. One thing you need to realize, is that the burden of proof is on you, the consumer. Ford won't roll over and do the investigation against them. Ford builds a vehicle and provides a warranty within a specified time. If the malfuntion occurs after the expiration of the warranty, then, unfortunately it's the consumers responsibility. If any of you think this is a design flaw, then you need do some investigation and show proof. I've only read a few things on here from mechanics who have voiced their opinion as to what the problem is, but that isn't very strong proof. Although I have read on here where others have had similar problems, I have never seen any actual numbers of problems and total vehicles sold. Someone will also have to start documenting specific information such as type of vehicle, engine size, year, which plug was blown out, how many miles, have the plugs ever been serviced and at what mileage etc. You need to build an actual case if you expect Ford to do anything. I know someone said they would build and maintain a website. That sounds like a great idea. This will take time and money. How much effort you are willing to put into this problem might help dtermine what results you can expect? I wish all you luck and maybe something can be resolved, but don't expect Ford (or any car manufacturer) to make it easy.
Last edited by Navi Man; 12-10-2002 at 11:49 AM.
#70
10-18-2002, 10:12 AM
Navi Man:
You are right about the burden of proof, and I would'nt expect Ford (or any other manufacturer) to "roll over" because of several complaints about a specific issue. Posting here started as an exploratory mission to see about others complaints, concerns and remedies. The next step is to gather as much info. (factual) as possible to try and find out the answers to the questions I (and others) have posted previously. This may take some time, because as you said, I don't think Ford will willingly supply the info., so it must be gathered in a roundabout way. I don't know if it's a "quirk" or a design flaw or what, that's what the next step for me to do is, gather info. I was the one who suggested the website, and i'm currently trying to figure out what the best way is to present the facts and let others post their own experiences, etc. As far as the effort and $ go, I have a lot of resolve, the $ may not be an issue if it truly is a design problem, someone would love to have the opportunity. I don't expect this to be "solved" overnight, diligence I have.
Paul
You are right about the burden of proof, and I would'nt expect Ford (or any other manufacturer) to "roll over" because of several complaints about a specific issue. Posting here started as an exploratory mission to see about others complaints, concerns and remedies. The next step is to gather as much info. (factual) as possible to try and find out the answers to the questions I (and others) have posted previously. This may take some time, because as you said, I don't think Ford will willingly supply the info., so it must be gathered in a roundabout way. I don't know if it's a "quirk" or a design flaw or what, that's what the next step for me to do is, gather info. I was the one who suggested the website, and i'm currently trying to figure out what the best way is to present the facts and let others post their own experiences, etc. As far as the effort and $ go, I have a lot of resolve, the $ may not be an issue if it truly is a design problem, someone would love to have the opportunity. I don't expect this to be "solved" overnight, diligence I have.
Paul
#71
10-18-2002, 04:00 PM
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Hi all,
NaviMan, thanks, but you're preaching to the choir, restating things I've alread said on previous pages of this thread.
BTW, you're also in no position to say how common this problem is: you'd have to collect data first to say that.
The NHTSA has no 'magic number' or a minimum number or percentage of complaints before they decide to investigate a particular issue: investigations have begun, and recalls have been ordered, on the basis of one or two consumer complaints. Obviously, greater complaints is more compelling to them, but they state no minimum.
Collecting accounts of problems is the 1st step: that's what this thread is about. And you can't collect the forces unless the problem is first made public.
Chris
NaviMan, thanks, but you're preaching to the choir, restating things I've alread said on previous pages of this thread.
BTW, you're also in no position to say how common this problem is: you'd have to collect data first to say that.
The NHTSA has no 'magic number' or a minimum number or percentage of complaints before they decide to investigate a particular issue: investigations have begun, and recalls have been ordered, on the basis of one or two consumer complaints. Obviously, greater complaints is more compelling to them, but they state no minimum.
Collecting accounts of problems is the 1st step: that's what this thread is about. And you can't collect the forces unless the problem is first made public.
Chris
Last edited by feefer; 10-18-2002 at 04:09 PM.
#72
10-18-2002, 04:14 PM
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10-18-2002, 07:28 PM
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Hi Paul,
Sounds like a good idea.
I think we both must dislike spam-bots, as we both have our e-mail addresses hidden from our profiles.
I just tried sending you a personal message thru this site, but it looks like the administrator has it blocked.
Here's an idea:
Register at this site, and send me a personal message containing your e-mail address (my user name there is also feefer):
http://warnerrobert.com/cgi-bin/ubbc....cgi?ubb=agree
Then we can talk off-line via e-mail.
Thanks,
Chris
Sounds like a good idea.
I think we both must dislike spam-bots, as we both have our e-mail addresses hidden from our profiles.
I just tried sending you a personal message thru this site, but it looks like the administrator has it blocked.
Here's an idea:
Register at this site, and send me a personal message containing your e-mail address (my user name there is also feefer):
http://warnerrobert.com/cgi-bin/ubbc....cgi?ubb=agree
Then we can talk off-line via e-mail.
Thanks,
Chris
Last edited by feefer; 10-18-2002 at 07:32 PM.
#74
10-18-2002, 07:35 PM
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#75
10-19-2002, 09:33 AM
Another One
Just came back from the Ford dealer said my spark plug had a blowout last one on passenger side. Told me they have never seen this before and must be the plugs where put it wrong. Funny they changed them about 40k ago. Came home, searched and found lots of posts about the same problem. I have a 1999 Ford SD/250 with 5.4l with 128,000 kms and out of warranty!
Is Ford going to ignore this problem ??????
WHO IS GOING AFTER FORD ??????
I want to Join or start the movement.
Regards
Abarth80
Is Ford going to ignore this problem ??????
WHO IS GOING AFTER FORD ??????
I want to Join or start the movement.
Regards
Abarth80