MasterCraft -- I have a 2001 Screw with 6000 miles on it. Had my 4r70 transmission replaced at 4000. My new one shifts entirely differently, and also, like my first, has a rubbing/pulsating feel just before shifting. What are the odds I got a rebuilt unit? And, if so, are you as down on these as you are on rebuilt motors?

Oh yeah -- I also got the wrong radiator.

For the ultimate blow, when I asked the dealer to "help me out" with an ESP (he's even a friend of mine) he said sure, I'd get a "good guy" price. Well, the price his guy subsequently called and offered me seemed high. So I cold called a dealer out of the yellow pages and, you guessed it, was offered a lower price than my "good guy, we just replaced your transmission and you're a friend of mine" price!

 

Hmmm, well I'd say its a almost certain you got a reman. Practically every american manufactuer uses remaned trannys. They can hardly keep up with demand using remans.

Climb up under and look for yourself, check the numbers and look for any Remaned sticker. Take the part number off the service order and go to your dealer and ask them to run the numbers. It will come back as a reman or new. But I have heard so much crap about "new and reman" until I am blue in the face. So many people are being told "its new" either deliberately or ignorantly. Its does not matter if 99% of the parts are new, and its updated and whatever, it still had to fall out of someone elses truck, get sent off, rebuilt, and sent to you or me. I look at it as basically they sent me some elses problems. That is how I would approach it. If I wanted a reman, I would go to AMMCO or Jasper or whoever, at least I can get a lifetime or somewhat less warranty. I dont know who is remanning Fords trannys right now, it used to be Fred Jones in Memphis, although they have now changed their name. Ford changed engine remans from Fred Jones to AER last year, but unfortunately in my case the quality was about the same, sorry. Although Fred Jones may still be a distributor for AER. So I cant say for sure, I can say those who got saddled with anything from Fred Jones in the past...well you just ask them what they think.

Sometimes remans are painted a different color from the factory units. And the core you turned in will go back and be rebuilt since there is like a $800-$1000 deposit the dealer has to sit on for Ford until the core is returned. I am suprised they still are putting the 4r70 in a SuperCrew, unless its a 4.6, most of the 2001 5.4s are running the 4r100 or the last of the E4OD's. The 5r55 replaced the 4r70 in the Explorer back in late 98 into 99 I believe. The 4r70 has a long history of converter vibration, spitting the converter, and overall being way to light to tow with. If you get 100k from one, you have had a good one. The 4r70 for years was the standard tranny in the Crown Vic, Town Car, Mustang, T-bird, Explorer, Inline 6 and most 302 F150s,

Reguardless, I really have no faith in a reman reguardless of what it is. Sure I have had some remaned alternators or whatever run some decent mileage. Every remaned tranny I have ever had has been a dog from day 1. GM, Ford, you name it, they all were nothing but problems, leaks, bad driveability, no durability etc.

I only buy first line parts. I expect my new $30k truck to recieve the same. Now I know it wont under warranty, since they will always take the cheapest road. Take for instance a water pump, there are two in the parts book, the reman and the new. The new costs twice as much but i have found i never have problems with them and that is the idea. (My motorcraft parts house sells the reman pump for $56, the new one is $104) and some remaned crap from autozone is like $39. Hope you get the lifetime warranty, cause you will need it.

So to answer the question, I'd bet its remaned, and there is probably nothing else available. After a tranny failure at such early mileage, you might check into qualifying under lemon law, and then I'd ask them to pony up the ESP, not buy it. They have to show some faith in you, since you are at such low mileage and unsatified. I would raise hell if the replacement if not right, that is what happend to me, we never solved the problem, we kept duplicating it.


If this one is not right, yank it out, demand another tranny and a rental car. That kinda puts you in the drivers seat, you have 2 trannys less than one year, that probably all but qualifies for replacement under most all lemon laws. Call your attorney generals office at check into it.

 

One more thought, I would argue with the zone that they are handing out extended warranties all over for people with "noise" in their motors (piston slap) which Ford Claims will not affect durability. (Use their own arguement against them) But yet here I sit with a vehicle that will not move or does not drive properly. Go after the safety aspect, (I have lost one tranny, I would hate to pull out in traffic an lose another)

And also I would argue they owe me at least the cost of the ESP for the devalument of a new truck because I now have a damaged vehicle. (Cant sell/trade it without disclosing the tranny replacement) If I had wanted a used or rebuilt transmission, I would have bought a used truck, not a new one.

See if that helps, hold their feet to the fire.


This also does not in any way diminish the previous comments on piston slap and how I feel, I am simply using it as an arguement to help someone else.!~

 

Mastercraft, have you been to Tundrasolutions.com yet? Search piston slap.

 

The tundra link was interesting. Sounds like the Tundra has plenty of problems of their own.

------------------
2000 F-150 XLT, 4x2, 5.4L Supercab, Superchip, Styleside, Black with silver two-tone, 3.55 rear, class III towing package with super engine cooling/auxiliary transmission cooling HD package, Heavy duty shocks, 4 wheel disk ABS, overhead console, sliding rear window, keyless entry, dark graphite interior, in dash CD, factory leather wrapped steering wheel, FORD bedliner, FORD black tubular cab steps, K&N air filter, mar-hyde rubberized undercoating, Modine climate filtration system, Bugflector II, Mobil 1 oil, build 7/2000

 

Yes i have read what you are talking about, I have all the Toyota service bulletins on my desk. (as well as Ford, GM, Chrysler etc) As for as your claim the I Force has a piston slap problem, nope, sorry, I read one guy who cant keep his facts straight and probably needs to be taught what a dipstick is and you dont drive 25kw without changing your oil. That and using some cheap *** filter with K Mart oil and wondering why it sounds oil starved in the morning. That problems sounds like oil starvation, not piston slap.

As for them having all kinds of problems, sorry, cant justify that claim either, the numbers for recall, service bulletin,
and owner reported problems just dont add up the way you want them to. Look in Consumer Reports under owner reported problems for the Tundra, Sequoia, and Landcruiser, all use the same motor. Its a cast block version of the Lexus V8 which uses an Aluminum block. And all have a steller repair and durability record. I am not biased toward Toyota, but I am not biased toward Ford either. I will tell you right now that I Force runs circles around both the 4.6 and the 5.4. Oh sure you can spout off horsepower ratings and the like, and the 5.4 makes more as does the 5.3 from GM. But you can also order a Tundra with a 4.10 rear which keep it right up with the 5.4 and the 3.55. I mean, if you dont believe me, go drive one, but since you are so biased toward the blue oval, it would not be a fair comparison.

Here are the facts as they are, not as someone might want them to be.

Chevy and Dodge still have way too many tranny problems. Chevy has finally gotten smart and started using the Allison tranny, which should be at least more reliable than the 4L60e/4L80e they are currently using. Chevy and Dodge, in my opinion, still have way too many electrical problems. The only reason I think anyone would even consider a Dodge is to get the Cummins motor.


Ford is by far and way the most reliable of the american trucks, I have worn out more Fords than most people have owned, I have a '95, '97, '94 and a 2001 in my driveway right now. Plus countless others that have been traded, worn out and wrecked. So I live with them everyday, I know all the shortcuts they take, what parts you have to replace 70, 80, 150, 200 thousand miles.

Did Toyota copy an F150? Sure, just look at it. But if you know anything about Japaneese design, that is always the case. They copy the Germans and Americans and perfect on what someone else has spent their R&D budget on. You probably think that is a rip off, I kinda think its a schrewd way to do business, you let someone else spend a lot more $$$ than you do. They also spend time perfecting what they make, take an Accord for example, turns over every 4-5 years, and they just keep working on it. Cant say that for a Taurus or an Impala.

So in the real world, the I Force is not only loads quieter, has equal or better power with better gearing, gets the same or better fuel economy than both the 5.4 and 4.6, and will probably give us 300k with no problems. So where is the problem?

See here is the rub, if Ford would have spend 1993-1997 perfecting the 5.4 instead of handing it out the door with more than one design defect. We, nor anyone else on here, would be going back for head leaks or piston slap. But I didnt make that call, I just have to live with the results of it.
I dont see any I Force going back for replacement, head oil leaks, and piston slap. I am sorry if that makes someone blue blood turn red. But in the real world where expenses count, as does down time, resale, and reliability. We, the americans are still behind the Japaneese.

 

Thanks, MC. As to the 4r70 -- yep, that's what I got in my 5.4l, 4x4 Screw, with optional tow package! I'm very disappointed. I'm no automotive engineer, but it would sure seem to me that my vehicle has different transmission needs/burdens than a mustang!

 

MasterCraft -- would you please e-mail me? I'd like to ask you advice for a couple of things but not beat a dead horse here online. Thanks, if you have the time. DF

dfraser@brobeck.com

p.s. Mods/Admin -- I've checked the block to have my e-mail address viewable, but it's not. Is that the case for everybody, or just an error?

[This message has been edited by LongTime (edited 04-09-2001).]

 

All ranting and raving, no good.Just mailed Dispute forms to Ford...I can't wait! Also requested lemon law info from Ind. state attorney generals office, I may not qualify for that on time limit but will try anyway. Am not going to roll over for these bastards!What's really bad is I work at the new Toyota plant building ...u guessed it, Tundras.It kills me to have to start up my Ford slap-o-matic in the parking lot at work. $26,000 piece of ****! Ya know its really not the mechanical problem that bothers me, its not fixing it, plus to keep on building it for several years is crazy!
That's why the Japanese are kickin everybodys ***. They really do take constant improvement seriously, I live it every day.
PS How did you get your buy backs? Did you have to take another Ford product or could you get refund?
Thanks for your info Perk

 

You have 5 ways to solve a problem with a major defect, what they want you to do is 1 (one) sell or trade and get off their back. Which is always the preferred option for Ford, if they can frustrate you and run you around enough, you get tired and either sell or trade. They win, and it works 80% of the time, they know 4-5 people either quit, sell, trade or just lump the problems, so that is line of defense #1.

#2 is the simple lemon law, check with the attorney general in your state and get a copy of the law. See if you qualify, you may have to hire an attorney, you may not, so check out the laws that vary form state to state. This is probably the most painless way to go if you qualify.


#3 and #4 Ford has two ways of solving what they call "customer satisfaction issues" especailly when the vehcile has a major defect. First is the buyback, and its the hardest to get. If you are driving say a '99 and you want out of the vehicle because its had like 3 transmissions in say 37,000 miles. You have no confidence in the truck anymore and have already been thru enough. A buyback simply takes the MSRP of a 2001 and sutracts the MSRP of the 1999, that would give you a total of say $2000, then Ford will want a mileage deduction for the use of the vehcile, this point is always open to negotiation. Their first offer will probably be .28 cents a mile, this is rediculous because that is the IRS business figure that includes gas, oil, and maintenence that you have already paid for. I would always argue against any deducation as retrobution for any time spent down with all these problems etc. If you agree to a deduction, then it must be only the actual depreciation like .10-.15 a mile, or what they charge on a lease for depreciation. Ford will offer a certain ammount to cover the costs of the MSRP difference and the mileage charge. IF they offer say, $3000 dollars, you would take the $2000 MSRP difference, add the mileage charge (say .10 a mile for 15,000 miles or to the point you started having trouble) $2000 + $1500= $3500, so you are out for basically $500, the new DOC fee, Title and such. Ford takes the truck back and will either auction if off or sell it back to the dealer you trade with. It actually helps the dealer since they get the truck wholesale from Ford instead of having to put trade value in it.
But the vechile will be resold. And if the dealer passes, it will be more than likely sent out of state and auctioned off. And like I have said, the lemon laws to not cross state line, so more than likely it winds up on someones used lot with no disclosure of all the problems.

The second option is what they call "trade assistance" You have to go through the zone for both a buyback and trade assistance. This puts the customer at a bigger disadvantage, but you can still probably get out of the vehicle. Trade assistance leaves it up to you to get the best deal from any Ford dealer, on the replacement truck and that includes the trade value on the used truck. So lets say you can only get $17,000 for your used '99 and a new one is $30,000. So lets say the dealer will sell you the new one for 3% over invoice at $26,300, you are only going to get $17,000 for the used one, that leaves you $9300 apart. Trade assistance, is where Ford will offer a certain ammount toward that $9300 difference. Their standard offer is always about $2000, but I have seen them much higher if you keep at it. So $9300-$2000= you pay $7300. Minus any rebates or incentives currently offered like the trans discount ($1000) right now and the cash payment discount ($1000). So that takes you to $5300. $7300 is a pretty steep bill, adn $5300 is better but with Ford only kicking in $2000, I would argue I would never pay more than Ford is willing to pay, Why should you or me pay 2/3 the cost and Ford only 1/3? For their defect? IN this case the ammount Ford pays is negotiable. If you can get you bill down to around $1500-2500 you have a good deal. You can trade for a 2001 for that ammount even if was perfect. Again, they dont like doing this, but it does happen.

Once again the truck goes back on the used lot, and is resold. The dealer assumes much more liability than Ford, since he has to resell the lemon or whatever you want to call it. The dealers will not give you full value on your trade because

A. They know what is wrong with it
B. There is a high risk the vehicle will have more problems.
C. They assume the risk of whoever buys it coming back again and again.
D. Its hard to sell a vehicle and disclose the defects and move it quickly.

#5 The last resort is filing suit, its not as easy as its used to be with tort reform and quite frankly a lot of attorneys wont take simple lemon cases anymore since the costs are more than the truck is worth. The ones that will take it prob will only be on contingency, which gets them 30-40% of the total take. Reguardless, threats of suing dont make them nervous, I mean get in line. And you have to be in it for the long haul, some lemon suits can take 2-3 years to run their course. So you are committing yourself to driving this turkey for a while.


So hang in there and keep fighting!

 

#6 is the FDSB, the Dispute Settlement Board, its arbitration, and most people who go to arbitration dont come out too well since the whole thing is stacked against the consumer. Big company, little guy, who do you think is gonna win this one?

Plus, in most cases with FDSB, you sign away the right to sue to persue artbitration. Fords appears to be binding on the consumer, GM's is not binding on the consumer, only the company.

 

I had to use the Dispute Board on my last truck, which was junk. After all was said and done Ford did the "buyback" thing with me and I paid the upgrade for my Supercrew.
Although the whole process was lenghty, time consuming, and and screwed up my last summer, I can say I am satisfied with the final outcome.
Email me if you have any questions.
slowguy@my-deja.com

 

hey mastercraft,
i'm not sure that i understand your "bad block" theory but the cylinders would have to be finished machined after any casting or heat treat process. basically; all heat treating that could cause the block to change shape would also cause scaling or at least make the surface finish rough enough to wreck the seals. please give me some more details on your theory.

------------------
'97 Lariat, 4x2, 4.6, red and grey.

 

Well first of all, its only a theory. I dont say its right, wrong, or half right. Just specualation and to see if you guys think it makes any sense. After sitting around hearing hours of theory about piston slap from all kinds of Ford reps, service managers, drivetrain engineers, etc etc. I just sorta, started asking questions like all of you, hoping I might get some kinda truth.

It just seems to me, the theories Ford has put forward do not wash. If the problem lies in the piston, then why are they still using the same one over and over? Ford claims that anything made after 4/99 does not have this problem; but, we all know thats bull. What was the alleged design change? The piston? Wrist pin? Piston coating? Liner? What? No one has ever really said what the change was, just that one took place. But whatever the change was, it has not solved the problem.

The latest theory about motor oil kinda reminds me of what GM did a few years back with the 3.1. That motor is notorious for piston slap (I drove a 2000 Malibu 3.1 as a rental car that had it with only 8000 miles)
GM went out and blamed the whole problem on 10w40 oil. Remember back about 1993 when they got on this kick about no 10w40? They said it was VI improver in the oil, the viscosity, new formulated gas, hotter engine temperatures, all kinda excuses. In the end, it was not the damn oil, and never was. They also started handing out warranties (6/72k) on the 3.1's. But insisted eveyone use a thinner oil. That seems to be what Ford has just done in ordering the 5w20 oil. Yes there are a couple other manufacturers recommending it but not mandating it. Most everyone else recommends 5w30/10w30. So most everyone else is comfortable with the grades.

I guess what makes me suspicous is I have heard all these excuses for everything that has a problem. Ford. GM, Chrysler, Mitsu, they all blame it everything in the world except, "whoops we screwed up" Trannys, (remember how Ford kept blaming the converter shake on the tranny fluid, not the design? Well most still shake even with new fluid. The piston slap problem contines inspite of just about all theories out there.


What I was saying was does it not make sense, that since these problems are occuring on both new and remanufactured engines, and that the only alleged common part between both is the block, is that not a good place to start looking? It just sounded to me like a thermal expansion problem somewhere. Kinda like the Vega, The F-85, the HT 4100, and the Quad 4. That the heat cycles of the block were allowing expansion of the bores or pulling them off center or whatever. That the regular heat cycles were the problem, the expansion and contractions, and that is why it was occuring in both old, new, and remaned engines. I was not particularly blaming the pistons, although it could be one, the other, or both. Or it could be a cooling problem inside the block that allows a thermal expansion problem. I really dont know, like i said its a theory and I would like to know as much as anyone.

But since i had the same identical problem

A....in 4 different engines, (All 5.4)

B. Made at 4 different times ('99, 2000, 2001) ,

C....on 2 different lines,


D....at different plants (Windsor and Carrolton Texas),

E....Using what they call "New" parts except the block.

That is where this started from, anyone who has another theory or guess, come on, I am all ears!

 

Just wanted to tell mastercraft you have been a wealth of information, i wish i had seen all this before i traded my problems away.