Amsoil - Give me the spin

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 10:51 AM
  #31  
Norm's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,278
Likes: 0
From: Seabrook,NH
Originally Posted by JerseyGeorge
It's amazing that Amsoil has been in business for 25 years advocating extended oil drain intervals. With all the engines they have trashed using this concept how can the stay in the black? Where do they find all the new customers to believe there sales pitch. Surely no one is a repeat customer buying into the hype so how do they do it??
Show us one engine they trashed with proof.
 
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 11:04 AM
  #32  
Norm's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,278
Likes: 0
From: Seabrook,NH
Originally Posted by 98Navi
I read the amsoil stuff, and on their website it says during the warranty period of your vehicle you ahve to follow manufacturers recommendations. I don't believe in extended intervals, because I have seen the results.
The reason you follow the manufacturers recommendations is to keep the manufacturers warranty. If you are not concerned with Ford's warranty any longer than do not worry about it.
This was explained to you many times but it clearly hasn't sunk in. It has nothing to do with Amsoils warranty or the Amsoils oils ability to go beyond the Ford intervals. Amsoils warranty will cover you for any oil related failure while using Amsoil products. Period.

Many people have proven extended intervals work. You will continue to change every 3K because you make money doing so at your shop. I will continue to change my oil yearly (~15K) and I will extend it further once I install my bypass filter and have oil analysis done to determine a better interval based on those results. I save money and produce less waste.
 

Last edited by Norm; Jan 16, 2006 at 11:07 AM.
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 11:23 AM
  #33  
Bluegrass's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,200
Likes: 39
From: Easton, Pa.
Did you know that in Europe they tell their people when they 'can' change their oil.
Enjoy your freedom now, it's slowly being taken away in bits and peices.
Certian additives being taken out of the oil.
The PCM programs are dumbed down, is one reason why theres a rush to use tuning chips etc.
Fed laws on cat converters, gas is being reformulated and the list keeps getting bigger.
Notice someone always makes money off this kind of situation by sucking money out of your pocket, in the chase, until the point comes even they become out of luck one way or another.
Look at all the different air intakes on the market! Their there for only one reason and that is the sales/profit to people who think there is gas mileage and power to replace what the factory didn't allow.
 
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 11:32 AM
  #34  
Holla's Avatar
Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: Anchorage, AK
I believe 3000 mile oil changes are WAY over-rated on todays engines! I bought into the Amsoil hype and got the 0W-30 series 2000 oil (with amsoil oil filter) and let it go for one year in my 93 accord--I did change the filter at 6 months as stated by amsoil. I took a oil sample ans sent it to an independent lab that stated my oil was FINE--no abnormal highs of any metals, dirt, gas etc....he said continue using it.

Of course I changed it at the one year mark. Now Its the only oil I run, I sold my honda with 140K and it did not burn a drop of oil between changes, just a top off when I lost a little at filter change. I had the valves adjusted at 90K by the honda dealer and I asked him to look for any oil sludge etc. He told me the inside of what he could see was sparkeling for a 90K motor.

I run the 0W-30 in my 99 4-Runner now and it has 90K with Zero problems. In fact I run amsoil everywhere in the Runner htat takes oil--F/R diffs, tranfer case. Take what I siad for whatever ut thats my story with amsoil and I love teh 1-year oil change factor
 
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 11:57 AM
  #35  
98Navi's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,618
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA
The reason you follow the manufacturers recommendations is to keep the manufacturers warranty. If you are not concerned with Ford's warranty any longer than do not worry about it.
Why on earth would anyone with an IQ higher than 4 do something that would void the manufacturers warranty to try and save $30 or so a year?

This is from www.thedieselstop.com

Another user (NoMo) made an interesting statement about Amsoil in another thread that caused me to do additional investigation. Thanks to NoMo for putting me on this trail. Please follow me on this logic because it's important.

Amsoil makes four motor oils they claim are for use in Diesel engines. Three are fully synthetic (30 weight, 5W-30, and 15W-40) and one is a synthetic blend (15W-40). Let's forget about the 30 weight oil and the synthetic blend oil for this conversation, and we'll concentrate on the fully synthetic oils that some here are using.

I will post verbatim from some sections of the 2002 Duramax Diesel Supplement page 6-18 which is titled "What Kind of Engine Oil to Use". Next to a graphic of the API service doughnut is the following statement: "This donught-shaped logo (symbol) is used on most oil containers to help you select the correct oil. It means that the oil has been certified by the American Petroleum Institute. You should look for this on the oil container, and use only those oils that display the logo." There is also a NOTICE that says "If you use oils that don't have one of these designations either CH-4 or CG-4, you can cause engine damage which is not covered by your warranty." You can read it yourself in your own manual for verification.

These are clear statements! Use only the proper API Certified oil or your warranty won't cover any damage.

I called the American Petroleum Institute to find out if Amsoil fully synthetic diesel oil is API approved (I talked to Kathy in the Motor Oils Division). I was told that Amsoil has been issued API License Number 0995 but that DOES NOT cover any of their multi-grade fully synthetic diesel oils. NoMo pointed out that the Amsoil does not carry the API starburst or donught-shaped logo.

Amsoil fully synthetic diesel oils are not API approved and are not approved for the use in your Duramax. API told me that all oils submitted for certification are tested by both their labs and an independent lab before a license for certification is granted. They would not tell me if Amsoil has submitted their oils and they failed, or if they have never submitted their oils for testing.

Amsoil claims that their synthetic diesel oils are "Recommended for Applications Requiring the Following Specifications:" and list various API ratings, but that is not the same a being API Certified, and not approved for the Duramax. They are telling you that you should beleive them that it meets API specifications, but we really don't know if it does or not. We do know it's not Certified as such. The only API Certified engine oils listed under the Amsoil license are the XL-7500 and PCO (synthetic blend) motor oils.
 
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 12:55 PM
  #36  
Norm's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,278
Likes: 0
From: Seabrook,NH
Your point is?

Amsoil is not asking anyone to void their warranty, that is why they tell you to follow the manufacturers recommendations! Ford's 3 year 36K warranty goes by really quick for most people. I had the ESP which was good until 60K but now I am over 85K so the warranty is a non issue.
API rating is also a non-issue for me.
 

Last edited by Norm; Jan 16, 2006 at 01:03 PM.
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 01:11 PM
  #37  
Plain-Jane's Avatar
Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
From: Cape Cod
Originally Posted by Holla

I had the valves adjusted at 90K by the honda dealer and I asked him to look for any oil sludge etc.
Not trying to be a wise guy, but just curious, are not the valves in your Honda hydraulic? I wasn't aware hydraulic valve lifters could be adjusted!
 
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 01:44 PM
  #38  
98Navi's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,618
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA
My point is the same as the author of that little piece. Even if you followed ford requirements for mileages, amsoil wouldn't satisfy the rating requirements and would void the warranty for API specs
 
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 02:48 PM
  #39  
Holla's Avatar
Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: Anchorage, AK
Originally Posted by Plain-Jane
Not trying to be a wise guy, but just curious, are not the valves in your Honda hydraulic? I wasn't aware hydraulic valve lifters could be adjusted!

No, in the 93 Accords the valves required adjusting per maint manual and you could hear the differance after adjstment.
 
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 03:25 PM
  #40  
Norm's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,278
Likes: 0
From: Seabrook,NH
Originally Posted by 98Navi
My point is the same as the author of that little piece. Even if you followed ford requirements for mileages, amsoil wouldn't satisfy the rating requirements and would void the warranty for API specs
You could use their API rated oils (XL7500 is great oil, better than most) until your warranty runs out or any other oil that suits your fancy. What is the problem?
 
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 06:30 PM
  #41  
98Navi's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,618
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA
The problem is that now you have to pick a specific oil from Amsoil, because they either can't get them API certified or refuse to try knowing that they would fail!! You can't buy a car that doesn't meet certain federal safety criteria so the manufacturers are forced to comply. Amsoil isn't forced to comply with API standards, although auto manufacturers require it for their warranties. A person who doesn't read these kind of forums or have more than a basic knowledge of oil could buy the uncertified version and be screwed. Why don't they just get it certified? They've had 25 years to do it.
 
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 06:41 PM
  #42  
Norm's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,278
Likes: 0
From: Seabrook,NH
Originally Posted by 98Navi
The problem is that now you have to pick a specific oil from Amsoil, because they either can't get them API certified or refuse to try knowing that they would fail!! You can't buy a car that doesn't meet certain federal safety criteria so the manufacturers are forced to comply. Amsoil isn't forced to comply with API standards, although auto manufacturers require it for their warranties. A person who doesn't read these kind of forums or have more than a basic knowledge of oil could buy the uncertified version and be screwed. Why don't they just get it certified? They've had 25 years to do it.
Clearly you have no understanding of the API rating and what is required. It is essentially a marketing tool. It does not mean that an API rated oil is any better than any other. They are bare minimum specs. Keep digging yourself in deeper.

API Licensing:

API Licensing - Passenger Cars - What is it?

An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests. These tests were selected and minimum performance standards were set by the API Lubricants Committee to address specific areas such as engine wear, deposits, fuel economy, emissions, etc. The committee is comprised of representatives from automobile, oil and additive companies.

Costs

The cost for running a test program for a single passenger car motor oil formulation is from $125,000 to $300,000, depending on if the formula passes the tests the first time through or requires multiple test runs or formula modifications to achieve a passing average. (That amount goes to $275,000 to $500,000 for a Heavy Duty Diesel licensing program on a specific formula.) Once that testing is complete and the formula has passed all of the minimum requirements, it can be licensed for $825 per year for non-members and $625 per year for members. There is also a small royalty fee per gallon sold for all gallons over one million. The length of time between new specifications is now approximately 2 to 3 years, which does not allow a great deal of time to recover testing costs.

Who Licenses What Formulas?

Additive companies, such as Lubrizol, Ethyl,, Infinium and Oronite, develop licensed formulas that they offer to oil companies to re-license. It is inexpensive to re-license one of these formulas, and the majority of oil companies choose to do this to avoid the costs associated with testing. This, however, tends to commoditize the market. The same chemistry is being sold under many brand names. Most of the major oil companies do have their own proprietary formulas developed, tested and licensed. All of AMSOIL INC.'s lubricant formulas are unique and proprietary.

Flexibility In Manufacturing An API Licensed Formula

API licensing was originally developed for mineral based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils.

Mineral oils comprised of group I and Group II petroleum basestocks may use a simple program called basestock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor engine tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum basestocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, basestock interchange for Group III and V synthetic basestocks is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester (Group V) basestock from a specific supplier, then anyone blending that formula must buy only that supplier's ester. Complete engine testing would need to be performed on the formula using another supplier's ester before an oil company could buy it from that alternative supplier. This additional testing is normally not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes it very difficult for synthetic lubricant manufacturers to negotiate prices with synthetic basestock suppliers.

There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic basestocks although the better cold temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. (That's another whole story.) What this means is that if you properly formulate the lubricant for which you have run all of the API tests, there are guidelines that allow you to use that same formula to make 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc. viscosity motor oil.
 

Last edited by Norm; Jan 16, 2006 at 06:47 PM.
Reply
Old Jan 16, 2006 | 06:45 PM
  #43  
Norm's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,278
Likes: 0
From: Seabrook,NH
Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the CMA (Chemical Manufacturers Association) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to change the percentages of components in the formula by varying amounts from the original formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements. For example, if the licensed formula used 10% of a certain V.I. improver, you would have the ability to utilize from 9% to 11% of the same V.I. improver for your formula.

Key Limitations For API Licensed Formulas

Phosphorous content - .10% maximum
(API SL; 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 viscosity grades, only)

NOACK volatility - 15% maximum



The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only .10% phosphorous. Their reason is that some manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converters on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over .10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run. What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil.

The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. State inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters.

AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of .10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than .10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed.

Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed And Some Are Not

1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.

2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.


You are clearly Anti-Amsoil and you are biased against extended intervals because you lose business at your shop. I have no problem with that. After all, we all have to make a living and pay our mortgages. Just making sure everyone is aware of your bias.
 

Last edited by Norm; Jan 16, 2006 at 06:49 PM.
Reply
Old Jan 17, 2006 | 10:30 AM
  #44  
98Navi's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,618
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA
First and foremost, thats an article by Amsoil. Of course it would be biased would it? So Amsoil can pay for and pass the test of some of its products, but not others? I guess then Ford should just send a few of its models to the safety tests and tell consumers that if some of them are good, they are all good! Maybe you should realize how dumb this has gotten. If they want to sell such a great miraculous product, then they need to pony up and pay the price to certify it. And again I repeat from the last time we went here, if its so great and been around 20+ years, why isn't it mainstream?

I really don't care how often anyone changes their oil, my main business is the carwash, the shop is just an extra profit center. I don't advertise it, nor push it. I know that my average customer purchases synthetic oil and change intervals average about 5200 miles. The only thing they ever see from me is an automatically generated reminder card that the system up in canada sends out after 60 days.
 
Reply
Old Jan 17, 2006 | 11:09 AM
  #45  
Norm's Avatar
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,278
Likes: 0
From: Seabrook,NH
Again you continue to show your ignorance. I am done with you. As I said before you can continue to believe what you want and do what you want. It is your truck that is pissing fluids all over the place now isn't it?
Yes the quote was from an Amsoil site but it explains API's procedure which you could confirm for yourself on a non-biased site. But why would you? After all it would support my side of the argument and you wouldn't want that. You are the one that needs to realize how dumb this has gotten. When several more experienced people on here continue to school you besides myself you continue to stubbornly dig in your heels. Remember the only time you stop learning new things is when you are dead. Open your mind. Peace. Enjoy your truck.
 
Reply



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:51 PM.