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2008 F150 Trans and Transfer case rebuild questions

2008 F150 Trans and Transfer case rebuild questions

 
  #16  
Old 04-05-2019, 09:15 PM
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No problem.

Took me a bit to figure it out, but hey it's not bad... specially not for $12 something...

Good luck...
 
  #17  
Old 04-05-2019, 09:23 PM
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Already ordered it. Absolutely not bad. $12 is a small price to pay for a little extra protection. Again, much appreciated.
 
  #18  
Old 04-14-2019, 06:08 PM
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OK guys, I've run into a few issues and need some clarification/help.

1. In the Ford manual, it says:
NOTE: The index mark on the output shaft
must be aligned with the index mark on the
output shaft ring gear during the assembly procedure

There is a dimple on the output shaft ring that's been painted blue (I'm assuming this is the mark they're talking about), but I can't find any index mark on the output shaft itself. If anyone knows exactly what or where the index mark is, please let me know or provide a picture. Thanks.

2. What's the end play of the planetary gears supposed to be for the 4R75E? On the Transmission Bench video, he's working on a 4R70W and says the clearance should be no more than 0.030". Did the clearances change for the 4R75E? My clearances are about 0.042".
Skip to 8:20

3. What are the clearances for the Forward drum clutch pack supposed to be for the 4R75E? On another lesson of that video series he says it's supposed to be between 0.052"-0.090", but my Ford manual says between 0.072"-0.090". Is the one in my manual a typo or did it get changed to 0.072" for the minimum clearance? I can only get about 0.060" clearance with a Sonnax Forward drum, wave ring they suggest, thinnest retaining ring available and new Ford frictions and plates. Clearances measured with dial indicator as per the manual.

Thanks
 

Last edited by Nun Ya; 04-14-2019 at 07:11 PM. Reason: Typo
  #19  
Old 04-16-2019, 07:12 PM
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OK, I guess no one knows what the clutch pack specs or planetary gear end play is supposed to be for the 4R75E. Does anyone have a number or email address to the engineering dept at Ford? Maybe they'll know.

Thanks
 
  #20  
Old 04-16-2019, 07:59 PM
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I'd email or call Darren. He doesn't check threads very often.
 
  #21  
Old 04-16-2019, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by glc View Post
I'd email or call Darren. He doesn't check threads very often.
I had emailed him before and he responded to some of my original questions, but never responded back to some additional questions I had sent him. So I just figured he was busy and not interested in answering any more questions.
 
  #22  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:07 PM
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A few more questions for everyone, sorry.

1. I can't get the proper clearances with Ford frictions and plates in the Sonnax drum. It's only 0.060", 0.012" shy of the minimum 0.072" spec'd in the manual and I'm already using the thinnest retaining ring. Would it cause any issues if 0.012"-0.015" were milled off of the piston to increase clearance?

2. Is it necessary to bed the stock input shaft into the Sonnax drum with some kind of loctite when pressing it in? The Sonnax directions don't mention it and there wasn't any residue on the stock shaft or drum when I separated them indicating that it was done at the factory, but I saw on BCA's website that it's recommended with the 300M shafts or the drum can move. Is it just the 300M shafts that require it or is it necessary for stock shafts too? Darrin, any wisdom would be welcomed.

Thanks guys.
 
  #23  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:48 AM
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VERY busy. Never not interested in answering. I just get like at least a hundred emails a day and I was out the latter part of last week and through the weekend. That's always an inconvenience. Things really go crazy when I take a vacation like I will be the end of this month. Somehow me doing that manages to get people all riled up at me and I have to run around and put out fires. I wish there were 3 of me at times. LOL

But lord help my wife with more than one of me. Maybe if there were at least a second then I'd have some time to spend with her. Which might push her tolerance though, SO...

Which Sonnax drum, the forward? Their specs don't seem to match reality. If you've got more than .005/friction then go.

I've also seen some serious fitment issues with their forward drums and literally any available shafts, including stock. I even made a youtube video early on about it. Since then it's gotten worse. IF the shaft fits too loosely then it moves no matter loctite or not. I've taken to abusive means to the splines on the shaft to keep them in place.

D
 
  #24  
Old 05-14-2019, 04:50 PM
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Cool

Originally Posted by Darrin Burch View Post
VERY busy. Never not interested in answering. I just get like at least a hundred emails a day and I was out the latter part of last week and through the weekend. That's always an inconvenience. Things really go crazy when I take a vacation like I will be the end of this month. Somehow me doing that manages to get people all riled up at me and I have to run around and put out fires. I wish there were 3 of me at times. LOL

But lord help my wife with more than one of me. Maybe if there were at least a second then I'd have some time to spend with her. Which might push her tolerance though, SO...

Which Sonnax drum, the forward? Their specs don't seem to match reality. If you've got more than .005/friction then go.

I've also seen some serious fitment issues with their forward drums and literally any available shafts, including stock. I even made a youtube video early on about it. Since then it's gotten worse. IF the shaft fits too loosely then it moves no matter loctite or not. I've taken to abusive means to the splines on the shaft to keep them in place.

D
I wasn't meaning the "not interested in answering any more questions" in a mean spirited way, but in a joking manner as in I ask tooooooo many questions. LOL. Though while we're talking about questions, what are your HD OD Bands for the 4R75E's made of? It doesn't specify if they're High Energy or Kevlar.

As for the input shaft fitment into the drum, it seemed pretty tight when pressed in. It didn't move overly easy when going in, you'd have to get some pressure on it before it would move a little. I guess it wouldn't hurt to install it with some kind of retaining compound. Between the Loctite 638 or Permatex High Temperature Sleeve Retainer , which one do you prefer and do I need to apply it to both the shaft and drum splines (conservatively I assume)?

Yes, the Sonnax standard capacity forward drum. When you say .005/friction, are you meaning .005" per friction? If so, that would only be .025" clearance. I must be misunderstanding. I have both the 2004 and 2008 F150 manuals and they both show the forward clutch clearance to be 0.072"-0.090" for the 4R70/75E transmissions. Where as my 2003 F150 manual shows the 4R70W to need a forward clutch clearance of 0.046"-0.068".

Maybe member Mark Kovalsky can chime in since he was an engineer there at the time they transitioned to the 4R70/75E transmissions. Maybe he knows, or would be able to find out, if the specs in both the 2004 and 2008 F150 manuals are typo's.



 
  #25  
Old 05-14-2019, 10:59 PM
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The Sonnax info is what I'm referring to as not totally accurate.

As long as you can get .005 per friction then you can fly with it. The Ford spec is not wrong. It's what they want measuring the way they do with the wave plate they use. IF you are using the wave plate then you can obviously get by with that much clearance. But if you put that much clearance in one without a substantial wave plate then the 4-3 downshift can be surprisingly abrupt. I am hardly ever able to build that clutch with any wave plate at all. So, mine end up a lot tighter.

But if you're using a thick wave plate and 5 frictions, which is a stock stack, then I sure wouldn't go as tight as .005 per and instead just get as much clearance as you can as long as you don't exceed the larger number.. I still feel like .015 per friction is excessive, but it obviously does what it's supposed to do as this isn't so much a shifting clutch.

D
 
  #26  
Old 05-23-2019, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Darrin Burch View Post
The Sonnax info is what I'm referring to as not totally accurate.

As long as you can get .005 per friction then you can fly with it. The Ford spec is not wrong. It's what they want measuring the way they do with the wave plate they use. IF you are using the wave plate then you can obviously get by with that much clearance. But if you put that much clearance in one without a substantial wave plate then the 4-3 downshift can be surprisingly abrupt. I am hardly ever able to build that clutch with any wave plate at all. So, mine end up a lot tighter.

But if you're using a thick wave plate and 5 frictions, which is a stock stack, then I sure wouldn't go as tight as .005 per and instead just get as much clearance as you can as long as you don't exceed the larger number.. I still feel like .015 per friction is excessive, but it obviously does what it's supposed to do as this isn't so much a shifting clutch.

D
Thanks for the clarification. I can understand not being able to get as much clearance as the spec calls for when adding extra plates to the forward drum, but I'm still surprised about only 0.030" clearance being acceptable for 6 plates. Wouldn't such a low clearance cause extra wear on the frictions when the the drum is disengaged in OD?

I am doing 5 plates with the thick wave spring. What I thought interesting in Jerry Wroblewski's article when talking about the forward clutch, he says "For a 5-plate forward I'd build it with about 0.080" end clearance. Again, if you are going to be off, be off higher rather than lower." This is when the clearance spec wasn't near that high, so for some reason he thought that it was beneficial to have more clearance than the spec called for. Any idea why?
 
  #27  
Old 05-23-2019, 08:54 AM
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I can't speak for Jerry. He put some stuff in that article that I simply don't understand. Particularly when it comes to that forward clutch. He says you can somehow fit 7 clutches in that factory drum too. The math definitely doesn't add up there any way you look at it.

I suspect that Ford upped the clearance to try to eliminate any drag they could when that clutch is disengaged. Probably related to CAFE standards they had to meet as every little bit helps I guess.

I'm just trying to tell you what works, and anything .005/clutch or greater works. That's the minimum clearance that the clutches need. But for what I've found to get the best clutch life and customer satisfaction, yours is on the looser end that I'd build. I've stacked a lot of these in a lot of different applications over the years and have had the opportunity to refresh many of my own builds when people wanted to upgrade or just want to get it checked while they were doing other work on their vehicle since my lifetime labor warranty includes that at no charge. What I've seen is that the tighter clutches look darned near brand new and have kept their clearance. The looser ones aren't so much like that unless using a manual valve body. So what that tells me is that a smooth, low pressure part throttle downshift into 3rd on a looser clutch results in wearing the tan frictions more than one with tighter clearances. Perhaps that's why Ford switched to a high energy friction on that clutch in later years. That totally makes sense and I'd never thought about it until now actually. They would hold up much better with that extra clearance.

You can analyze it to death or put it together and be driving it.

I would put it together and be driving it. Trust me, it's not too tight. Nowhere near it actually. NO worries at all.

D
 
  #28  
Old 05-24-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Darrin Burch View Post
I can't speak for Jerry. He put some stuff in that article that I simply don't understand. Particularly when it comes to that forward clutch. He says you can somehow fit 7 clutches in that factory drum too. The math definitely doesn't add up there any way you look at it.

I suspect that Ford upped the clearance to try to eliminate any drag they could when that clutch is disengaged. Probably related to CAFE standards they had to meet as every little bit helps I guess.

I'm just trying to tell you what works, and anything .005/clutch or greater works. That's the minimum clearance that the clutches need. But for what I've found to get the best clutch life and customer satisfaction, yours is on the looser end that I'd build. I've stacked a lot of these in a lot of different applications over the years and have had the opportunity to refresh many of my own builds when people wanted to upgrade or just want to get it checked while they were doing other work on their vehicle since my lifetime labor warranty includes that at no charge. What I've seen is that the tighter clutches look darned near brand new and have kept their clearance. The looser ones aren't so much like that unless using a manual valve body. So what that tells me is that a smooth, low pressure part throttle downshift into 3rd on a looser clutch results in wearing the tan frictions more than one with tighter clearances. Perhaps that's why Ford switched to a high energy friction on that clutch in later years. That totally makes sense and I'd never thought about it until now actually. They would hold up much better with that extra clearance.

You can analyze it to death or put it together and be driving it.

I would put it together and be driving it. Trust me, it's not too tight. Nowhere near it actually. NO worries at all.

D
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I was saying it's just surprising to me that 0.005" per was good for drums with extra plates used and was curious if the less clearance would cause more wear of the clutches. You build these transmissions day in and day out. I believe you when you say it works well.

I see what you're talking about in regards to the 7 plate statement in the article, I checked my OEM drum to see what I could get with it. With Raybesto's Stage 1 clutches, stock OEM steels and a 0.062" retaining ring, there was 0.012" clearance. After measuring to determine how much extra clearance could be gained after milling the piston, anything over 0.012" wouldn't make a difference. Removing 0.050" as stated in the article would be just a waste of time, at least in my particular drum.

I'm not trying to over analyze anything. I'm just trying to figure out specifics for everything I can. I've already spent a lot of money buying new parts unnecessarily because I couldn't find specs for particular parts. Example, the planetary gear. The only spec I could find on the pinion end play was from the transmission bench video for a 4R70W. He said if the end play is over 0.030", it would need to be replaced. I was getting 0.052" end play on mine and I couldn't find a spec or anyone who knew if that was excessive for the 4R75E planetary gear pinion so I bought a new one. I get the new one and guess what, it has the exact same end play of 0.052". Complete waste of money. This is why I ask so many questions about everything. With as long as these transmissions have been out, I expected people would have known more about the 4R75E. After I finally get this thing together, I should probably start a thread telling people what not to do when rebuilding their transmissions. LOL!!!!

Trust me, I'd love to have it back together and driving it right now. The valve body I ordered is back ordered and won't be available for a couple more weeks. I didn't want to assemble the transmission and let it sit for weeks before installing it in the vehicle. I wasn't sure if soaking the clutches, installing them, then letting it sit for an extended period of time would cause any issues. Is there a specific amount of time a newly assembled trans can sit before installing it?
 

Last edited by Nun Ya; 05-24-2019 at 04:24 PM. Reason: planetary gear
  #29  
Old 05-24-2019, 08:30 AM
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I deal with all these questions regularly. There is SO much nonsense out there on the internet posted up by people who want other people to think they know what they're talking about.

The truth is that there are very few real specs available.

Also, likely the best running 4R70W I ever built was put into my old 96 Thunderbird. I don't know what to make of it, but it was going on 275,000 miles the last time I talked to the guy that owns it now. I assembled it with new clutches and a mishmash of parts I had laying around in boxes that I refused to use in my performance builds. There are things you simply do not put into a several thousand dollar transmission that are going into a vehicle with more than 500hp to the wheels. I only built this one that way because I was in a hell of a bind. I was leaving for a trip to Florida and was concerned about how overdrive was acting and a valve body swap did nothing. Threw it together in about an hour and had it in the car in another 3. Normally it takes me longer than that combined 4 hours to just assemble anything that anyone is paying me to do. I truthfully only paid attention to total end play to make sure I had the right thrust washer in there. 14 years later and it's still going strong. I've never heard back from anyone else that has that many miles on one that I built and abuses it like this guy does. Just plain weird how that works.

I also quit soaking clutches years ago. I made that decision the first time I got my hands on a completely fresh factory transmission that hadn't been installed in anything yet and it had been assembled dry. To date, about 13 years later, I haven't found a single reason why the clutches needed to be soaked in the first place.

Also, I had 5 of those factory transmissions. I held onto one for almost a decade before installing it. I am on the opposite end than you. I believe that it is far better to get all the parts in the box where they are safe than to have them anywhere else.

D
 
  #30  
Old 05-25-2019, 04:51 PM
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I've definitely noticed a lot of varying information out there. Trying to separate everything and find specific info is exhausting sometimes.

I can understand factory units being dry. Ease and speed of assembly as well as prolonged storage are probably a few important factors for that decision. As you've attested to, dry units can be stored for years without problem. Maybe the reason the manuals and manufacturers call for soaking the frictions before installation on rebuilds is to avoid damage to them from people not letting the trans run long enough to lubricate and drench everything before shifting through the gears and engaging clutches. Just a thought.

I completely agree with you about the parts. I'd prefer them to already be installed rather than apart. It bugs me every time I go into the garage a see the parts spread out over my workbenches. But between the Sonnax drum issues, backordered parts and additional parts having to be ordered, it's been unavoidable. Hopefully within the next couple weeks I can get this thing back together and installed before the truck develops other issues from sitting too long.
 

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