Just got back from 1st trip with 07' F150 4.6L -Not Impressed with towing
#31
07-22-2008, 12:50 PM
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FX4, 3.73's, Tow Package, and a 5.4L
Towed a pop-up in overdrive with no problem @ 70 mph. And averaged 16 mpg over 3,000 miles.
Now the new Travel Trailer is another story. Right around 5,000 of trailer. Requires 3rd gear towing. 65 mph is a practical maximum speed. Averaged 10 mpg over 3,200 miles. But it wasn't always a comfortable tow. Headwinds or mountain grades felt like a struggle. Some 2nd gear 3,500 rpm stuff. And despite the tow package, we twice hit 205 degrees of trans temp (mountain grades) according to my ScanGauge. Yikes! I'm well under the specified towing max of 9,300 and didn't expect to see that. The majority of the time, my trans temp was about 160. I would have thought that I'd never see 200 degrees towing this trailer. (I'm getting a flush and replacement of fluid.)
I'm thinking that I will be looking at the light duty diesel when it becomes available. There is no way I'd ever tow more than 6,000 pounds for any longer distance with this truck. 9,000 pounds? Forget it IMO.
Towed a pop-up in overdrive with no problem @ 70 mph. And averaged 16 mpg over 3,000 miles.
Now the new Travel Trailer is another story. Right around 5,000 of trailer. Requires 3rd gear towing. 65 mph is a practical maximum speed. Averaged 10 mpg over 3,200 miles. But it wasn't always a comfortable tow. Headwinds or mountain grades felt like a struggle. Some 2nd gear 3,500 rpm stuff. And despite the tow package, we twice hit 205 degrees of trans temp (mountain grades) according to my ScanGauge. Yikes! I'm well under the specified towing max of 9,300 and didn't expect to see that. The majority of the time, my trans temp was about 160. I would have thought that I'd never see 200 degrees towing this trailer. (I'm getting a flush and replacement of fluid.)
I'm thinking that I will be looking at the light duty diesel when it becomes available. There is no way I'd ever tow more than 6,000 pounds for any longer distance with this truck. 9,000 pounds? Forget it IMO.
I have a question for you, just curious, did you keep an eye on your temp guage when towing in O/D ? How high did it climb ? Also, did you do any steep grades ? Or mainly flat towing ? I am just curious, thanks.
#32
07-22-2008, 01:55 PM
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Lots of rolling grades through Dakotas and Montanna. Enough so that we couldn't hold overdrive with torque converter lock. Then it would unlock but stay in 4th generating transmission heat. So I finally gave up and locked out overdrive. Then I could lock the torque converter in 3rd and pretty much stay there. Interestingly, there was little difference in cylinder head temp, water temp, trans fluid temp, or even fuel mileage between 3rd and overdrive. The only time overdrive was an advantage was on a downhill run or with a tailwind. In other words, light load. If it was working under a heavier load, virtually no difference. Overdrive always felt like the truck was lugging otherwise and then it couldn't hold lock.
I was fretting about trans temps when they went up. My wife kept saying that the truck had to be designed and tested for rated loads. But I can't help but think tranny temps approaching 200 is not a good thing. I was frankly disappointed by that more than anything else. These trucks are vastly over-rated IMO.
I was fretting about trans temps when they went up. My wife kept saying that the truck had to be designed and tested for rated loads. But I can't help but think tranny temps approaching 200 is not a good thing. I was frankly disappointed by that more than anything else. These trucks are vastly over-rated IMO.
#33
07-22-2008, 02:00 PM
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On the long, rolling grades, we mostly saw 160 trans temp. Just fine. No difference 3rd or OD. We hit the high temps on very long, steep mountain grades; 2nd gear stuff (torque converter locked). Saw 180 a couple of times in 3rd lock on longer, steeper grades. There wasn't really anything that I could do about it other than turn around and go home. It made me cringe though. Hated to do that to the truck but unavoidable.
#34
07-22-2008, 05:00 PM
Well, i'm guessing you never towed with a diesel before. I've been too busy to tell my tale about my first towing experience with my 2008 KR Supercrew about three weeks ago, so here goes.
Our trailer is about 6,000# on average, a 27 foot Jayco Hybrid. I installed VMP's tow tune and couldn't get the load above 45mph. Justin was nice and rewrote the tune which helped a bit, but my overall impression of the F-150 towing has nothing to do with a custom tune as I run the stock tune for towing now.
I knew I was gambling going to an F-150 from my 2007 F-250 smoker, but the company made the decision and I'll live with it. Anyway, after I switched to the stock tune towing our trailer with this F-150, I didn't notice much difference from the VMP tune. Sinve I'm waiting for Troyer tunes, too, and I bought upgrade parts from them, I even called them to ask if I taking a big hit in the power department because of the AF1 and MBRP SIDO I installed. Stupid I know, but I was shocked. There was that much shock over what I used to experience with a diesel. The F-150 rides better with the load, but the "out of the hole" power absolutely stinks. You need a looooooong on-ramp to even access the interstate. Passing? Forget it. I know there is alot of wind drag, but I couldn't believe how powerless the 5.4L actually was. There is no way on this earth I would attempt to even come close to the specified tow ratings Ford posts for this vehicle for safety reasons alone. Don't get me wrong... the ride is nice, but I'm just not used to the hesitation, the upshift/downshift, the lack of low end moving power, and the squishy feel from the F-150's soft suspension.
Now, before some of you get your panties in a wad, I have "adjusted" since my first tow. I leave larger gaps, take more time entering the on ramps, and don't expect to get there as quickly. The truck does pull okay after the load is moving, and will keep up with traffic on the interstate at 62mph just fine. I run with the O/D on until the truck tells me it doesn't like it, or when I anticipate a hill or grade coming. I watch the ScanGuageII, and I average about 195 degrees coolant temp when it's 85 degrees out and the intake air is close to 98 degrees. The transmission temps rarely approach 200 degrees, and usually average about 178 to 180 degrees. All this at about 11-12mpg, too. That says all seems to be working fine. I just needed to make a MAJOR change in my driving style and expectations. Had I never pulled our trailer with a diesel before, I'd have nothing to talk about. I do remember hooking up to the trailer with the diesel for the first time after selling our pop-up. There, too, I noticed a BIG difference even in the diesel's performance - from 3,000# to 6,000#.
For the twelve times a year I tow our flying brick, and the other six times I haul a 3,200# landscape trailer, the F-150 is fine. I'm just not getting all warm and fuzzy over what some seem to think is "an easy tow". Hopefully the 2009's will earn better bragging rights. It's pretty reasonable in my mind that if I pulled more than I do a season and if I kept a truck longer than I do, the wear and tear would undoubtedly begin to show alot sooner than any 3/4 ton. The F-150 works fine for a weekend warrior, but anyone seriously considering towing in the 6k+ weight range on a "more often" basis might consider a larger rig.
Our trailer is about 6,000# on average, a 27 foot Jayco Hybrid. I installed VMP's tow tune and couldn't get the load above 45mph. Justin was nice and rewrote the tune which helped a bit, but my overall impression of the F-150 towing has nothing to do with a custom tune as I run the stock tune for towing now.
I knew I was gambling going to an F-150 from my 2007 F-250 smoker, but the company made the decision and I'll live with it. Anyway, after I switched to the stock tune towing our trailer with this F-150, I didn't notice much difference from the VMP tune. Sinve I'm waiting for Troyer tunes, too, and I bought upgrade parts from them, I even called them to ask if I taking a big hit in the power department because of the AF1 and MBRP SIDO I installed. Stupid I know, but I was shocked. There was that much shock over what I used to experience with a diesel. The F-150 rides better with the load, but the "out of the hole" power absolutely stinks. You need a looooooong on-ramp to even access the interstate. Passing? Forget it. I know there is alot of wind drag, but I couldn't believe how powerless the 5.4L actually was. There is no way on this earth I would attempt to even come close to the specified tow ratings Ford posts for this vehicle for safety reasons alone. Don't get me wrong... the ride is nice, but I'm just not used to the hesitation, the upshift/downshift, the lack of low end moving power, and the squishy feel from the F-150's soft suspension.
Now, before some of you get your panties in a wad, I have "adjusted" since my first tow. I leave larger gaps, take more time entering the on ramps, and don't expect to get there as quickly. The truck does pull okay after the load is moving, and will keep up with traffic on the interstate at 62mph just fine. I run with the O/D on until the truck tells me it doesn't like it, or when I anticipate a hill or grade coming. I watch the ScanGuageII, and I average about 195 degrees coolant temp when it's 85 degrees out and the intake air is close to 98 degrees. The transmission temps rarely approach 200 degrees, and usually average about 178 to 180 degrees. All this at about 11-12mpg, too. That says all seems to be working fine. I just needed to make a MAJOR change in my driving style and expectations. Had I never pulled our trailer with a diesel before, I'd have nothing to talk about. I do remember hooking up to the trailer with the diesel for the first time after selling our pop-up. There, too, I noticed a BIG difference even in the diesel's performance - from 3,000# to 6,000#.
For the twelve times a year I tow our flying brick, and the other six times I haul a 3,200# landscape trailer, the F-150 is fine. I'm just not getting all warm and fuzzy over what some seem to think is "an easy tow". Hopefully the 2009's will earn better bragging rights. It's pretty reasonable in my mind that if I pulled more than I do a season and if I kept a truck longer than I do, the wear and tear would undoubtedly begin to show alot sooner than any 3/4 ton. The F-150 works fine for a weekend warrior, but anyone seriously considering towing in the 6k+ weight range on a "more often" basis might consider a larger rig.
I notice in your picture you have those 20" rims. If that is the case, then I would expect those tires will cost you a little in low end moving power. I have the 20s on my truck and I was asked the same question, and all I can do is agree it may be an issue. I don't know, because all I've towed so far is an empty hay wagon. I have less than 200 miles on the truck so far.
I would like to tow occasionally @7000lbs, but I would like to get a set of 17" rims first, but that may be a bit excessive. What do you think?
#35
07-22-2008, 05:08 PM
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I'm curious as to how the rim would have that much difference ?
Maybe I am not understanding it, and am by no means a towing expert !
But 17" rim - 20" rim same exact contact patch with the tire to street and same exact diameter tire. I'm not sure where the power loss would take place.
Rims are heavier then tires, sure, but I don't think it would be enough to dramatically hurt your towing.
20" rims might hurt your ride comfort. Also, you'd have to make sure you find tires for a 20" rim with a heavy tow rating, something like a D rated tire.
Maybe I am not understanding it, and am by no means a towing expert !
But 17" rim - 20" rim same exact contact patch with the tire to street and same exact diameter tire. I'm not sure where the power loss would take place.
Rims are heavier then tires, sure, but I don't think it would be enough to dramatically hurt your towing.
20" rims might hurt your ride comfort. Also, you'd have to make sure you find tires for a 20" rim with a heavy tow rating, something like a D rated tire.
#36
07-22-2008, 05:37 PM
Good point. You can put any size tire you want on the rims, and it's the tire size that makes the difference in towing.
Ford sells their trucks with larger tires on the larger rims, and as a result sets towing limits based on the rim size. Pre 04 trucks with the 17" lariat rims and 265/70/17 tires lost a few hundred lbs in towing capacity. The same goes for today with the 20" rim option. On my 08 Screw the towing capacity drops from 9300 to 8800 if you have the 18 or 20" rims.
To your point, I think the tire size on the 18 and 20" rims are very close to the same size.
Ford sells their trucks with larger tires on the larger rims, and as a result sets towing limits based on the rim size. Pre 04 trucks with the 17" lariat rims and 265/70/17 tires lost a few hundred lbs in towing capacity. The same goes for today with the 20" rim option. On my 08 Screw the towing capacity drops from 9300 to 8800 if you have the 18 or 20" rims.
To your point, I think the tire size on the 18 and 20" rims are very close to the same size.
#37
07-22-2008, 06:28 PM
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#38
07-22-2008, 10:09 PM
I'm curious as to how the rim would have that much difference ?
Maybe I am not understanding it, and am by no means a towing expert !
But 17" rim - 20" rim same exact contact patch with the tire to street and same exact diameter tire. I'm not sure where the power loss would take place.
Rims are heavier then tires, sure, but I don't think it would be enough to dramatically hurt your towing.
Maybe I am not understanding it, and am by no means a towing expert !
But 17" rim - 20" rim same exact contact patch with the tire to street and same exact diameter tire. I'm not sure where the power loss would take place.
Rims are heavier then tires, sure, but I don't think it would be enough to dramatically hurt your towing.
I don't care anymore because the 20's look so much better it's worth it ot me and I did some other power upgrades to help offset it but the 20's definitely hur the performance, especially with 3.55's.
#39
07-23-2008, 09:16 AM
#40
07-23-2008, 12:36 PM
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Overall diamater and weight are what effects the towing. You lose power by switching to the 20's because it takes more power to turn them. I went from the oem lariat 18's to the oem 20's and it was a HUGE difference. When I was putting them on in my driveway I couldn't believe how much heavier they were. I nearly broke my back putting them on. When I went for a drive I IMMEDIATELY noticed a power loss driving around. It was far less responsive than when I had the 18's and definitely felt slower.
I don't care anymore because the 20's look so much better it's worth it ot me and I did some other power upgrades to help offset it but the 20's definitely hur the performance, especially with 3.55's.
I don't care anymore because the 20's look so much better it's worth it ot me and I did some other power upgrades to help offset it but the 20's definitely hur the performance, especially with 3.55's.
The 20" rims might weigh what 10 lbs more then an 18" ? and now your tire is lighter then your old ones, same diameter, its not going to be that dramatic of a loss. We have Mercedes in here all the time, they have all sorts of rim configs, and the larger rims give a harsher ride, but never lead to much, if any, power loss.
apt: thats why i said a "properly rated tire" wanted to make sure that wasn't what we were talking about.
#41
07-24-2008, 10:47 AM
#42
07-26-2008, 05:46 PM
1) A Larger tire gives you a larger turning diameter. There is a loss of low end torque similar to what happens when you go from a 373 axle to a 355 axle. This is simple physics.
2) A larger rim weighs more, and a larger tire weighs more, and a higher load rated tire weighs more. There is a power loss because it takes more power to spin the heavier tire. I'm clear on this one.
3) A "properly rated tire"? The trailer carries the weight, not the truck? my 20" tires are rated at 2403lbs each. That's a total of 9612lbs. What is properly rated and how does it impact towing capacity and low end torque?
Of the three above I would expect #1 to have the greatest impact on towing feel which is a result of available low end torque.
#43
07-27-2008, 01:21 PM
#44
07-27-2008, 04:52 PM
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I added the Edge programmer late last week and it definitely made an improvement to my 4.6L! I love the way it blends into the dash with the pod and all of the functions I am able to monitor with it. I seem to have picked up 1 or 2 mpgs with it in the #2 tune as well. Can't wait until we go on another camping trip to see how it does towing now.
#45
07-28-2008, 12:00 PM
3) A "properly rated tire"? The trailer carries the weight, not the truck? my 20" tires are rated at 2403lbs each. That's a total of 9612lbs. What is properly rated and how does it impact towing capacity and low end torque?
Of the three above I would expect #1 to have the greatest impact on towing feel which is a result of available low end torque.
Of the three above I would expect #1 to have the greatest impact on towing feel which is a result of available low end torque.
As for your comment about feel, every driver is different. Feel is too subjective. More rotational weight has the same effect as taller gearing because of physics again. It takes more force to generate torque on the wheel.