No...that article was to point out that Vortech lowered the ratings on some of its systems. ATI has nothing to hide from, ATI has great systems for street and race vehicles. ATI still has the most winning compressors in NMRA competition.


What I think is happening here is that some people are getting to hung up over claims and the compressors and not seeing the total picture. Yes, at a certain boost setup the difference between the centri. and the positive displacement systems are going to be just like what mab351 posted. But that doesn't exactly reflect what an enthusiast will do with a particular setup. Bottom line a centrifugal compressor is more efficient at any given boost level. What that means is that it is possible to run more boost on a given vehicle. Anyone here running 14 - 15 psi with a Whipple or Eaton M112 on a factory longblock? Very few if any. Quite a few of us are running such boost on a Procharger or Vortech though. Why are the Lightning owners swapping to screw-types? Well they are a direct bolt-on...so obviously given a certain achievable power level one is going to take the course that involves the least amount of changes involved. Sal at PSP went from a roots, to a twinscrew, to a ProCharger, and finally to a turbo. Why? Because each system represented the next step in achieving a certain performance goal. What it means is that I could go to a 10 psi Whipple setup (if they had pulled their heads out of their asses and made one) and be making a bit more power in the lower end of my power band and that would be about it. I've driven my truck and a friend's L-truck...we both came to the same conclusion that there isn't enough difference. At the track he'd get the jump on me, I'd reel him back in, and our ET's and MPH where almost always the same. Only things that came out was that in city driving my truck had a little more pick-up (9:1 vs. 8.4:1 compression ratio) and that heat soak didn't play as much of a role at the track.

 

What article are you reading?
We get it.
You don't like Prochargers.
Almost half of your posts on this site bash ATI.

Read not just the ATI site, but magazine sites as well.
Results from this site, too. And other sites. Both the good and the bad.

No offense, but several of your posts in this thread bash a product (ATI) with heresay, unproven allegations, flat-out "mis-statements", and supposed blown engines that defy logic based on how the product/engines work.

Fact is, there are many good product out there.
Each stands on it's own, with their own pros and cons.

How about we stick to the facts about each?
This way, we can help others make informed decisions.

 

I can stick witht he facts about each. The TRUTH HURTS about ProChargers. Like I said the make Killer Drag Blowers. But when someone tells me that I'm wrong and I know that I'm right about several blown engines. I have been building NA, Turbo, and SuperCharged engines for the last 9 years. Ok look at it this way, when tune a Supercharged car that runs consistant 9.60's in the 1/4 mile when something goes wrong like Air+Fuel and some "other form of oil" enters the cumbustion chambers and foules and plug and this mixture hits 5 of to 8 chambers MAJOR ENGINE DAMAGE will occur and it did. This cost the car owner about 13,000$'s to repair and he went back with the same engine set up and with a Novi 2000 and now runs 9.48 in the 1/4mile. I really don't care about what other people think about my opnion as long as nkow the truth that is all that matters.

 

You've already posted some bad info about the ProChargers, hence why your credibilty with them is questioned. You say you've had all these customers with damaged engines with ProChargers and automatically lay blame with the unit. Sorry but any engine that fails with a little oil fogging into the intake was either improperly built or running on the extreme end of their tune. Anyone here can relate a horror story related to any single brand of supercharger.


As for real world info I'll post my dyno graph. Don't seem to be missing any bottom end there.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/707...ec200522ct.jpg

 

Sweet. Let us know when you start doing that.

Cool. I can respect 9 years of experience.
So perhaps you can enlightren me on a few things.
I'm not too bright.

Interesting becuase that's not how the blower is designed. There is no way a blown seal would allow oil to get into the intake tract. And because it is self-contained, it has no way of getting into the engine oil. Please explain how this can be? And why your story has changed thu this thread?

...because we went from contaminated engine oil to fouled plugs, which may be bad on a racecar but really just cause poor running on a street car.

Really? Centrifugals are more efficient than roots/twin-screws, and discharge air at alower charge temp. This has been proven time and time again. And it has also been proven many times that Procharger oil temps are cooler than blowers that tap the pan and use engine oil. Please explain.

Really?
The dyno thread sticky, plus dyno charts on threads not in the sticky, sure make it look like there is a comparison. Please explain what you mean.

Really? Timeslips on this site and others sure don't bear this out at all. Please explain. Plus, as a racer you would know that HP wins races. Torque does not. But if you have some source contrary to established racing principle, I'd love to hear about it. Like I said, I'm not too bright.

Really? I did it, but it certainly isn't necessary and most folks here haven't done it yet make good power and are quite happy. I did it because Ford decided that 3.31 gears were great for a 3-ton truck with a tow package that pulls a 7,000-lb boat with an engine factory-rated at 235hp. Please explain why one would have to do this in other circumstances.

True.
No argument there.
Cents aren't great at low-end. Though are cerainly better than stock. 410-lb-ft, 380 before 3,000 rpm, that ain't bad at all.

Yes, and that reason is, it's a simple bolt-on swap.
Sal at PSP went to an F1 Procharger to his L (thought it wasn't easy at all), then to a turbo as noted above.
But perhaps there's a reason why Sal went through all that trouble to try this?

Yes, but some of us with street-trucks would like to be somewhat easy on our drivetrains. I don't have the dough to put a built tranny or forged motor into my truck. If you do, more power to you.


No, it isn't. Again, proven many times over. Please explain.

 

Cents are pretty simple too, and you don't have to replace the intake manifold.

And let us know when that intrercooled KB comes out. It will be very interesting to see how their site changes, because currently the KB site says intercooling is not needed with their blowers:
http://www.kennebell.net/faq/faq-answers3(2).htm



As someone with 9 years of experience, you no doubt know that an intercooler has no bearing on head-unit temps. Intercoolers are downstream of the blower, and only affect discharge air temps. How does an intercooler affect blower head-unit temps if it has no interraction with it? Please explain.


OK, so are we talking about 9-second race cars or street trucks here?
Many of us have experieiced a little detonation due to bad gas, a bad tune, or what have you. This is with all types of blowers. Even naturally aspirated. Detonation would kill a race motor pretty quick. Yet few of us have blown an engine because of it.

On our street trucks, try putting 6 ounces of oil into your intake tract.
Guess what, you get some smoke and that's about it.

There's a guy on that other F150 site who tried to run 12 psi with his Whipple. Guess what? His engine blew. Whipple's must sux...?

So if a Whipple sux, and Prochargers sux, then blowers in general must sux because if engines blow with improper setups, we're all doomed.

And that truth would be...that you don't like Prochargers, and will perhaps fabricate things to back your story up? Or is it that almost half of your posts on this entire site bash a product with...let's call them "not-so-true" statements? That's about all I'm getting in this thread, but again, I'm not too bright...perhaps I'm missing something?

 

I'm done explaining myself to people who do not have knowledge when it comes to power adders. All I'm trying to do is save someone thousands of dollars down the road and a little sanity. When the headunit starts to leak oil and you pick up the phone and deal with their customer service and can't understand why they will not fix it, just remember I TOLD YOU SO!!!

 

As far as the oil in the intercooler, I'm having the same issue with my Procharger set-up. But it's not the ATI oil, it's the engine oil being sucked up through the PCV valve. I took off the rubber elbow at the I/C inlet and out poured about a half a cup of engine oil. So being concerned about the oil going all the up into the TB I dismantled the whole thing and found no oil past the I/C. But I did have to drop the I/C to drain the oil from the bottom of it and clean it out. I guess some have installed these so called catch cans, or air/oil seperators on their PCV lines to resolve this issue. I'll probably do the same some day. Certainly ATI has their fair share of problems such as belt tensioners and in-line pumps. But you can't say they're bad compressors b/c they've been around too long and have won too many races. I'm convinced that any time you do big mods to an engine, you're always going to be wrenching on something all the time.

 

My head unit developed a seal leak at the bottom of the unit. I called ATI, the gave me a number and a contact name, they gave a FedEx number, I shipped it to them, they fixed it and Next Day shipped it back to me all in that same week. Didn't cost me a dime.

 

Alright, I am going to try and bring this thread back on topic. This thread was never meant to bash anyone's blower they are using. To keep this thread on topic it would be great to comment on the blower setup that is installed on your personal truck and not what I think about this blower opinion. Then we just have a thread derailment. I really appreciate the information put out so far and I do appreciate people trying to keep on subject. THANKS!!

So far what I am hearing is the overall performance is about the same between a roots and a cent. So far I like the setup of the powerworks and the procharger. I like the procharger just because if I would want to return the engine to stock it would be easy and I am not left with a hole in my oil pan to deal with. I also like the powerworks due to the low end torque that is produced.

Since a cent blower builds more power from mid to high RPMs, how is this blower at maintaining a speed under a heavy tow load for instance? Example would be passing a vehicle, will I have to step on the gas and get it to kick down to get the boost up to get the power?

Same question for a roots blower. When passing a vehicle that is going about 60 MPH, will I beable to give it just a little bit of gas and pass the vehicle since the boost is supposed to come on in low RPM situations?

 

Prior to installing my Procharger I could'nt pass at all on the highway while towing my 9000# boat. After the install, I could, but I do have to kick it down to get revs up and from what I've heard, you'd have to do the same with the twin screw's or roots. It maintains highway speeds effortlessly. Without a heavy tow load, I pick up speed nicely without having to drop down a gear. If I do drop it down, it screams. I can't wait to get the 12# pulley and fuel pump installed.

 

Powerworks





I love my powerworks the most when I am driving my truck. Issues of shift points and the desire to reach 400rwhp are in my mind yes... But they only surface when bench racing in an online forum. Is my truck fast, that depends on your definition of fast. Is it more fun than it was with bolt ons... You better believe it. Can I beat an SRT, lost yesterday after letting him move first. And no I could not catch him... but today I saw him parked at 7-11 and I went home got the family MBZ and meet him pulling out of the parking lot. 2 out of 2 went my way. A win is a win no matter what you are driving. Just like a loss is a loss.

Check out the Powerworks it is Power that works

 

Mab351,

GREAT job on a double blinded study!

The chart actually proves my point.
1.) The centrifugal charger is only good in a limited band of RPM's, hence their common use in the aircraft industry where RPM's of the engine are from 1500 to 3000 RPM. The blower is designed for this power band.
2.) You mentioned the cooling requirements. Again, the air to air cooling of the Procharger seems to prove a greater adiabatic efficiency.
3.) People seem to be geeting the wrong idea. Just because one cools a s/cer install, it does not make it more efficient. The efficiency of a blower is by virtue of it's design, not if it is cooled. The s/cer will generate heat either way. The cooling mechanisms help maintain cooler running engine temps.
4.) Power is NOT everything. People seeem to be getting hung up on power alone. What are the benefits to the powerplant? Is it stressing the running gear less? Is it more economical to run?

This stuff is like a sailboat; everything is a compromise. Anyway, great job just the same!

 

I just wanted to clarify what you wrote on your last post. Do you mean cooler intake air temperature? I am pretty sure that the intercooler has nothing to do with the engine temps. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Doesn't the intercooler and the supercharger together determine it's total overall efficiency? If you run just the Supercharger, wouldn't it be less efficient than running it with an intercooler?

 

Lethal,

From all of my reading and research, and perhaps someone can correct me if I am wrong, when you create heat in the first place, cooling it does not make the device that created it more efficient.
A device is efficient by design, with some of the energy being transformed into work and some being transformed into heat ( one of Einsteins laws of relativity- energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transferred). Taking heat away has it's benefits to the overall performance of the powerplant.
In my blown MG, the blower is on the front in between the rails and is air cooled. I once s/ced an MG TC with and under the bonnet, side mounted and belt driven, eccentric vane s/cer know as the Shorrock which was not cooled. When you nailed the accelerator, you would see the temp gauge start to go North real quick. When you ram a charge that is not cooled, the temps go up rapidly. It is this cooling on an intercooler that helps the overall cooling of the powerplant.