timing question
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From: Southwest Virginia
timing question
I'm considering a superchip or just setting up my timing but after talking to a friend of mine I have a question. He said that he has never been able to get much out of advancing timing on a Ford. He thinks that the computer will overlay/replace whatever you set base timing too. From reading posts it sounds like some people are advancing their timing and seeing a difference. Does the computer adjust timing based on base timing, whatever you set that to be? For instance, if I set mine up 3 degrees will the computer use this as a new 'base' and adjust from there or will it set it back to stock and cancel out my change? Can I get 75% of the gains of a chip by advancing my timing? It's free. I know the chip adjusts timing and fuel curve but can I get anything that I can feel SOTP from just timing?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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From: NoWhere :)
i'm not sure but , i think the ecm only adjust timing on engines equiped with a crankshaft sensor and no distributor . aka post 97' , or 96' for rangers and other models . i don't think it has any bearing on the 5.0 or 5.8 other than adjusting a/f ratios . i know it has no bearing on my motor , i adjust my timing with a light and turning my distributor .
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From: Ventura, California
drm7-
Timing adjustments make a very big improvement with Ford engines. The trick is doing it correctly. Ford EEC-IV ignition timing is controlled by the ECM. The distributor no longer has a vacuum or mechanical advance. If you try and adjust it by simply turning the distributor, you won't have much luck. You first must remove the SPOUT connector. The SPOUT connector is a jumper that permits the ECM to set the timing to predetermined curves, based on various conditions. With the SPOUT in place, your timing will read whatever the ECM thinks it should be at, not the actual base timing. Even if you try turning the distributor, the ECM will still adjust the timing so that your timing light will continue to read whatever setting it is the ECM wants it to be at. When the SPOUT connector is removed, the ECM no longer has control over the timing, and it reverts to the base timing. The only way to "trick" the ECM into allowing you to advance the timing is to do it with the SPOUT disconnected. This is also the only way to actually see what your base timing is actually set at.
For example, lets say the ignition timing is supposed to be set to 10 degrees BTDC. You hook up your timing light, but don't remove the SPOUT connector, and you check your timing. Your timing light tells you your timing is set to 20 degrees BTDC. You try to adjust it to 10 degrees by loosening the hold down bolt, and turning the distributor. You check it again, and the timing hasn't changed, or not very much, so you turn the distributor more. By the time you finally get the timing to read 10 degrees BTDC, the engine is running like crap. The idle is surging, and when you accelerate, the engine falls flat on it's face.
What has happened is that the ECM knows that the distributor is set to 10 degrees BTDC, but it feels like the best timing advance while sitting there idling is 20 degrees BTDC, so it advances the timing by 10 degrees (by changing the wave pattern it sends to the TFI module). When you come along and try to change it, you are actually retarding the timing by at least 10 degrees, trying to counteract the advance the ECM is creating. The ECM will detect a difference, and try to compensate for it. This usually involves advancing the timing further, as well as altering the fuel signal. You end up with a mess.
By disconnecting the SPOUT, the true base timing presents itself, and from there you make your adjustments. If you desire 14 degrees BTDC, unplug the SPOUT, check the timing, and adjust it to 14 degrees. Then, reinstall the SPOUT, and the ECM will now think the base timing is 10 degrees BTDC, but it will actually be 14.
I hope this answers your question. I also hope this is what you were referring to. The SPOUT connector is pretty common knowledge, and I hate to think I just typed all this because I misunderstood your question.
Take care,
-Chris
Timing adjustments make a very big improvement with Ford engines. The trick is doing it correctly. Ford EEC-IV ignition timing is controlled by the ECM. The distributor no longer has a vacuum or mechanical advance. If you try and adjust it by simply turning the distributor, you won't have much luck. You first must remove the SPOUT connector. The SPOUT connector is a jumper that permits the ECM to set the timing to predetermined curves, based on various conditions. With the SPOUT in place, your timing will read whatever the ECM thinks it should be at, not the actual base timing. Even if you try turning the distributor, the ECM will still adjust the timing so that your timing light will continue to read whatever setting it is the ECM wants it to be at. When the SPOUT connector is removed, the ECM no longer has control over the timing, and it reverts to the base timing. The only way to "trick" the ECM into allowing you to advance the timing is to do it with the SPOUT disconnected. This is also the only way to actually see what your base timing is actually set at.
For example, lets say the ignition timing is supposed to be set to 10 degrees BTDC. You hook up your timing light, but don't remove the SPOUT connector, and you check your timing. Your timing light tells you your timing is set to 20 degrees BTDC. You try to adjust it to 10 degrees by loosening the hold down bolt, and turning the distributor. You check it again, and the timing hasn't changed, or not very much, so you turn the distributor more. By the time you finally get the timing to read 10 degrees BTDC, the engine is running like crap. The idle is surging, and when you accelerate, the engine falls flat on it's face.
What has happened is that the ECM knows that the distributor is set to 10 degrees BTDC, but it feels like the best timing advance while sitting there idling is 20 degrees BTDC, so it advances the timing by 10 degrees (by changing the wave pattern it sends to the TFI module). When you come along and try to change it, you are actually retarding the timing by at least 10 degrees, trying to counteract the advance the ECM is creating. The ECM will detect a difference, and try to compensate for it. This usually involves advancing the timing further, as well as altering the fuel signal. You end up with a mess.
By disconnecting the SPOUT, the true base timing presents itself, and from there you make your adjustments. If you desire 14 degrees BTDC, unplug the SPOUT, check the timing, and adjust it to 14 degrees. Then, reinstall the SPOUT, and the ECM will now think the base timing is 10 degrees BTDC, but it will actually be 14.
I hope this answers your question. I also hope this is what you were referring to. The SPOUT connector is pretty common knowledge, and I hate to think I just typed all this because I misunderstood your question.
Take care,
-Chris
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From: Southwest Virginia
This is exactly what I was asking. Thanks for the info. I think I found the Spout plug when I was mod'ing my airbox. Just beside it is a plug of some sort with a cap on the end and it looks like it should hook to something but doesn't. Just sort of lays there on the end of some wires. Right?
Also, the next part of my question which you, PKRWUD, can probably answer since you had a chip and you have also advanced your timing is this: will this give me 75% of the gains of a superchip? Or is the SuperChip program that much better at timing and fuel delivery? I have so many other things to put on my truck that I can't justify the chip right now. I need shocks, tires, exhaust, springs, cap, and lights. These other things are needed first so it will be a while before I can chip it.
Also, the next part of my question which you, PKRWUD, can probably answer since you had a chip and you have also advanced your timing is this: will this give me 75% of the gains of a superchip? Or is the SuperChip program that much better at timing and fuel delivery? I have so many other things to put on my truck that I can't justify the chip right now. I need shocks, tires, exhaust, springs, cap, and lights. These other things are needed first so it will be a while before I can chip it.
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From: Virginia Beach, VA
drm7,
I would say no, overall you probably won't see 75% of the gains from a chip by advancing timing. Here's why....
Advancing base timing does just that. It will advance the timing across the curve. At any point that you hit the limits, it will cause detonation at which point the knock sensor will reduce timing.
A chip can adjust the curve rather than just increase it. It may advance the timing more under certain conditions, and less under others. By doing this it can better compensate for actual conditions. The chip can also alter fuel injector pulse width, something that advancing timing will not do. As an example, my truck seems to find the limits of timing under two conditions. One being just after a shift point under moderate acceleration and load. A chip could retard the timing slightly under this condition and prevent detonation while allowing more or the same advance under other conditions.
You can get good gains, especially in certain areas, by advancing the timing. On my 302 the biggest gain is in off idle low end power. Mid range and top end don't seem to benefit as much, but this could just be the effect of a heavy truck with output limits.
Just for reference, I can run about an extra 4 degrees on regular gas. More on premium though I haven't really found the limits, probably an extra 7-8 degrees. Also note that in my area I either have to change the timing in winter, or not push the limits as much. 14 degrees BTDC is fine in summer with reg gas, in winter I will get a slight detonation unless I mix in some mid grade or premium fuel.
I always make fairly small (1-2) degree adjustments and fine tune from there. Run the truck for a few days to allow the computer to adjust. Then check to make sure you aren't getting any detonation. Keep the radio and fans, etc off and do a couple WOT tests under different conditions. Also check part throttle uphill conditions, etc. Run just about any condition you could experience. The knock sensor on my truck is fairly quick, and I never get any real detonation that you would notice with the radio on. Any time you hear even the slightest detonation the computer will pull out timing. In short more timing can produce less performance. Find the limits for your truck and stay slightly below them.
I would say no, overall you probably won't see 75% of the gains from a chip by advancing timing. Here's why....
Advancing base timing does just that. It will advance the timing across the curve. At any point that you hit the limits, it will cause detonation at which point the knock sensor will reduce timing.
A chip can adjust the curve rather than just increase it. It may advance the timing more under certain conditions, and less under others. By doing this it can better compensate for actual conditions. The chip can also alter fuel injector pulse width, something that advancing timing will not do. As an example, my truck seems to find the limits of timing under two conditions. One being just after a shift point under moderate acceleration and load. A chip could retard the timing slightly under this condition and prevent detonation while allowing more or the same advance under other conditions.
You can get good gains, especially in certain areas, by advancing the timing. On my 302 the biggest gain is in off idle low end power. Mid range and top end don't seem to benefit as much, but this could just be the effect of a heavy truck with output limits.
Just for reference, I can run about an extra 4 degrees on regular gas. More on premium though I haven't really found the limits, probably an extra 7-8 degrees. Also note that in my area I either have to change the timing in winter, or not push the limits as much. 14 degrees BTDC is fine in summer with reg gas, in winter I will get a slight detonation unless I mix in some mid grade or premium fuel.
I always make fairly small (1-2) degree adjustments and fine tune from there. Run the truck for a few days to allow the computer to adjust. Then check to make sure you aren't getting any detonation. Keep the radio and fans, etc off and do a couple WOT tests under different conditions. Also check part throttle uphill conditions, etc. Run just about any condition you could experience. The knock sensor on my truck is fairly quick, and I never get any real detonation that you would notice with the radio on. Any time you hear even the slightest detonation the computer will pull out timing. In short more timing can produce less performance. Find the limits for your truck and stay slightly below them.
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From: Southwest Virginia
Thanks guys.
I found a gray capped plug in about the same location as your picture. It's slightly different shape though. The gray cap is attached to the fenderwell but I can unplug the wire thingy that goes into it and it has 4 electrical connections in it. Does the gray cap have jumpers in it that close circuits or how does unplugging the gray cap work? Since the gray cap is attached to the fenderwell I was unable to inspect it, but it might have swiveled around, just didn't think to check. Oops.
I saw a post somewhere that suggested that setting up the timing would give more hp but you would lose torque. Is this correct? If I go 4-5% advance w/91-93 octane gas am I going to lose torque? My goal would be to gain both torque and hp. Also, can the computer on a stock engine compensate for higher octane gas, 91+, or is it a waste of money? I'm thinking that if it can sense knock that the higer octane would allow it to advance timing more.
I found a gray capped plug in about the same location as your picture. It's slightly different shape though. The gray cap is attached to the fenderwell but I can unplug the wire thingy that goes into it and it has 4 electrical connections in it. Does the gray cap have jumpers in it that close circuits or how does unplugging the gray cap work? Since the gray cap is attached to the fenderwell I was unable to inspect it, but it might have swiveled around, just didn't think to check. Oops.
I saw a post somewhere that suggested that setting up the timing would give more hp but you would lose torque. Is this correct? If I go 4-5% advance w/91-93 octane gas am I going to lose torque? My goal would be to gain both torque and hp. Also, can the computer on a stock engine compensate for higher octane gas, 91+, or is it a waste of money? I'm thinking that if it can sense knock that the higer octane would allow it to advance timing more.
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From: Ventura, California
You did not find the SPOUT connector. it is a simple jumper, not much bigger than a blade fuse, and has only two contacts. Follow the wires from your TFI module, and you ill find it.
4 or 5 degrees shouldn't cost you any torque. It will be a win/win situation.
using a higher grade gas is fine. It has nothing to do with the ECM compensating for it, though. It's really very simple: octane inhibits detonation. Higher octane allows you to do more without suffering the side effect of pinging. When you do ping, the knock sensor detects it, and the ECM retards the timing, period. The thing is, though, with a higher octane gas, you lessen the chance that that will happen. get it?
Take care,
-Chris
4 or 5 degrees shouldn't cost you any torque. It will be a win/win situation.
using a higher grade gas is fine. It has nothing to do with the ECM compensating for it, though. It's really very simple: octane inhibits detonation. Higher octane allows you to do more without suffering the side effect of pinging. When you do ping, the knock sensor detects it, and the ECM retards the timing, period. The thing is, though, with a higher octane gas, you lessen the chance that that will happen. get it?
Take care,
-Chris
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From: Virginia Beach, VA
drm7,
Your SPOUT plug on your '94 should be the same as in the picture Chris posted. Just as in his picture, it should have a pink wire also. An easy way to find it is just follow the pink wire from the TFI module. Looking at my Haynes manual yours should be mounted the same as the picture.
As for timing you should be able to get 4-5 degrees no problem with premium. As Chris said, avoid detonation regardless of fuel grade used. I run 14 degrees BTDC with 87 octane so you shouldn't have any problem. I might get around to finding out what I can get away with using premium, but I figure if I'm burning premium all the time I may as well get a chip and get the shift improvements as well.
Your SPOUT plug on your '94 should be the same as in the picture Chris posted. Just as in his picture, it should have a pink wire also. An easy way to find it is just follow the pink wire from the TFI module. Looking at my Haynes manual yours should be mounted the same as the picture.
As for timing you should be able to get 4-5 degrees no problem with premium. As Chris said, avoid detonation regardless of fuel grade used. I run 14 degrees BTDC with 87 octane so you shouldn't have any problem. I might get around to finding out what I can get away with using premium, but I figure if I'm burning premium all the time I may as well get a chip and get the shift improvements as well.
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From: Maine
20 degrees! Holy sh!@! And I was scared to go beyond 12ish. I'm gonna go for 16 I guess. 93 octane is worth the price when horse power is involved.
My Briggs engines are at 27 degrees, but they are a little different
My Briggs engines are at 27 degrees, but they are a little different
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From: Southwest Virginia
Thanks everyone! I finally found the Spout connector, it was bent facing down so I didn't see the gray thingy. Now I have to wait for a visit from my friend w/a timing light, or I'm going to have to get my own. I think I'm going to go 5 degrees or so w/89 octane. My tune up and airbox mod has improved my throttle response and mpg so I'm going to try timing next. I'm not looking for a drag truck but any 'free' hp is nice.
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From: Southwest Virginia
Ok, I need some help here. I have a timing gun but I can't find the timing marker. It's been a while since I've messed with timing but I thought the marker would be on/near the crankshaft pulley. Right? I have a 94 351w, can anyone tell me where the timing mark is? I have the serpentine (sp?) belt and you almost can't see the crank pulley except from just off center to the left standing at the front of the engine and looking down. So many other pulleys.Also, which direction do I turn the distributor to advance the timing? Clockwise or counter-clockwise?
Thanks!