1.6 billion - 75 million = 1.525 billion, not 995 million.

 

oops - made some math errors.

 

Yup my bad. Thanks for the correction. Figuring approximately 90k (since that is the middle of the estimate) officers/agents qualifying/training on the special use weapons some quarterly some yearly depending on agency policy. There is easily another several hundred million rounds of ammo in addition to the numbers I've already laid out. For example a shotgun has two types of ammo buck and slug. Training and qualification for each type of ammo is expected. 10-15 rounds seems like a low number for a weapons system, but I could see some agencies shooting that little. 20-30 seems about right. But either way. Go with 10 rounds per person per quarter. You're looking at 900,000 per quarter just in shotgun ammo. Over the five year period you're looking at 18 million rounds just for the LEOs not in SRT or the USCG. I would expect the M-4's and MP-5's the to use much more ammo for qualification and training for a basic officer/agent. More on the line of 100-150. That works out to roughly 180 million just for the M-4, not including SRT or the USCG. Both SRT and the USCG use the M-4 extensively. SRT trains on it a lot and shoots a lot more than 100-150 rounds per quarter. The number of officers/agents on SRT are very difficult to come by even being in the agency.

 

You will not find hard numbers for every agency. They do that for a reason. It's called operation security. Others takes some digging in computer databases and expanding the searches outside what you would consider normal(one thing I was taught to do with my current job). With that said, you can make a pretty good estimate on how many officers agents there are with the numbers that are published. I'll admit some of the numbers I get are due to my access to agency only websites and are not available to the general public. Sorry but those numbers can not be revealed. A big one would be the US Secret Service. They will not publish how many agents they have, but HSI did publish the number of special agents to be around 6700 agents. They do not publish the number of Immigration Enforcement Agents. You would have to have knowledge of how they work and where they work to get an idea of the numbers. That's probably a pretty good estimate for the number of Secret Service agents working criminal investigations, but then you would have to take an educated guess as to the number of people assigned to protection details. You have two Bushes, the Clintons, and Carter still kicking in addition to the current POTUS and VP. I don't know if you have a background in any type of security, but that is helpful in making estimations. I'll let you in on a little secret it takes a lot of people to provide protection 24/7.

Some of those estimates are why there is a large swing in the estimated number of officers/agents. Another reason that adds the the large range in the estimates is due to having the internal knowledge of how many people some of the agencies have and they do not want released. Sorry I'm not going back to searching all of the websites again. I do have a life outside this forum, but most of the numbers are out there to be found.

 

Sorry, but DHS only uses about 15 million rounds per year. http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphben...-conversation/

 

Thanks for the link, Frank. Lots of interesting discussion over there at Forbes.

Just a shrewd bulk buy on ammo, or somehting more???? 'Something more' seems to be outposting the 'no big deal' by about 20:1.

Folks, the government is printing money like crazy, and whenever interest rates resume a realistic reflection of risk, we will not be able to pay our current debt, much less keep borrowing more.

Eventually, the real inflation will hit and interest rates will rise, and the real pain/unrest will start.

Seems to me the government is preparing for those changes, and they feel the need for some ammo and armor. It's not about securing the border and arresting some terrorists.

 

UUUHHHHH, that is the FLETC using that amount and does not include the rest of the agency.

 

Sorry, but you have grossly overestimated the number of people that are needing this ammo for routine training and carry. I just looked up one agency that you stated (ICE) and you mentioned they had 40-50 thousand agents. They only have just over 20,000 employees. Total. And all of them do not use/need ammo. I didnt even bother looking up any other agency after that since you missed that one by 50%. As for beating a dead horse, you sure are working very hard in this thread to convince everyone that this is SOP.

Its impossible for DHS to need 325,000,000 rounds of ammo per year without some stockpiling going on.

 

I will admit I didn't write it the easiest way to understand, but reread it, "There are an additional 40,000-50,000 ICE agents (essentially investigators), CBP Air and Marine units, Immigration Enforcements Agents (essentially correction officers), Secret Service agents, Federal Air Marshals, Internal Affairs for each agency under the Secretary (investigate misconduct), all agencies within DHS have an Inspector Generals office (Investigate Fraud), Coast Guard (all get firearms qualified)." Notice all of the commas. This is a list of all of the agencies that carry and qualify with firearms in addition to Border Patrol and Customs and Border Protection Officers.

There are plenty of places this government is doing shady things. Complaining about something that is a non-issue not only makes you lose creditability for those issues that need to be addressed, it makes you look like a conspiracy theory nut case.

 

I never said anything about any conspiracy theory. Like Kingfish stated before, your numbers just dont jive from the numbers of agents that qualify to the numbers of rounds they fire per year. To call it a "non issue" is ridiculous. Especially when the govt typically orders ammunition by the million(s).

Like I stated before, theres no way to have a use for this amount of ammo without stockpiling. All you have to do is look at what they have ordered in the past.

 

You're correct you never said anything about a conspiracy theory, but you sound like a conspiracy theory nut case by complaining about something that is not an issue. Especially when you are presented with as accurate a number as you will be able to find for the number of agents/officers who need to be qualified/trained in DHS. What are the "real" numbers you think are accurate for the number of federal LE officers/agents in DHS?

 

Lighten up francis. DHS claims approx. 70,000. Total. Do the math. Divide 325 million by 70,000. Comes out to about 4600 rounds per year per agent.

Numbers. Dont. Jive

 

The only place I've seen the 70k number tossed around is with an interview with Mrs. Dixon of the FLETC or articles quoting Mrs. Dixon. Unfortunately she was talking about the number of officers/agents who have used the FLETC ranges to shoot. She did not qualify her statements as the 70k being only from DHS. Last year none of my co-workers used any FLETC range, so the rounds we shot are not included in her interview and none of my co-workers are included in the 70k number.

 

Fun Facts with Math:

A typical 5.56 / .223 round is 2.25" long. End to end, 1.6 billion rounds would wrap around the equator 2.286 times. Or you could make a chain from New York to Los Angeles.... 20.37 times.

A typical 9 mm round is 1.15" long. End to end, 1.6 billion rounds would wrap around the equator 1.17 times, or go from New York to LA 10.41 times.

Assuming an MRAP is 25' long, a line of 2,700 MRAP's would be 12.78 miles long.

If you fired one round EVERY SECOND, it would take 50.73 years to fire 1.6 billion rounds.

If you need to fire 1.6 billion rounds in 5 years, you will have to fire 10.15 rounds every second, 24/7/365.

That's a lot of range time and a lot of heat being generated. Seems like the global warming alarmists should be raising a fit. If any private business needed to expend that much heat and gas into the atmosphere, the government would bury them with red tape and require an EIR, lol.

 

^^You got too much time on your hands, Dave