All of the federal LE officers/agents, with the exception of the Coast Guard qualify/train quarterly with their firearms. I'm unsure how frequently the Coasties qualify/train but my guess is at least once a year or every other year. I agree quarterly is a bit excessive, but that is what is mandated. I worked local where we qualified/trained every six months and when I was in the military we qualified every six months on our primary firearm and every year with our secondary firearm.

 

OK, for all of you justifying this purchase, please explain why they need hollow point rounds for target practice. Hollow point rounds are for only one thing. (And it's not target practice.)

 

Because that is what they use. Many police agencies train with what they use. It keeps fresh ammo in the pistol and keeps from having to rotate ammo. If they purchased say 1000 rounds of hollow points that are rarely used and 6000 rounds of ball ammo for training/qualification then the ball ammo would get used while the hollow points would have to be replaced after so many years to keep reliable ammo in the pistols for duty use. Another issue is the supply chain. If there is only one type of pistol ammo used by an agency the likelihood of screwing it up an ammo order goes down drastically. It is said it takes a computer to really screw things up. Imagine the havoc a government employee with a computer could wreak. Those are my best guesses. Every agency I've worked at used what we carried for training/qualification.

 

Even if there were 100,000 agents that are armed, and the number even you stated is no where near that, that would be 16000 rounds per agent. If that were what the they were firing, that is all they would ever do. It takes quite a while to safely shoot that many rounds. I would be surprised if any agent fired more than a few hundred rounds per year to qualify. And while ammo is long lasting, I would very much prefer fresh rounds if it was needed for my safety.

As a side note, it is interesting that the military is not allowed to use hollow point ammo against enemies of the US, but federal agencies can use them against their own citizens.

 

Just how long does ammo have to sit before it goes bad? I have el-cheapo Russian stuff that is god knows how old and it always goes bang. I have surplus NATO stuff that always goes bang too. I have a feeling the caliber would be replaced before the ammo actually gets to a point where it does not reliably work. Think back 25 years ago and most cops carried a .38 revolver, then it was the 9mm and now the .40S&W. I say it would be a pretty safe bet the 25 y/o .38 will go bang as soon as the hammer falls.

I'm not trying to shoot the messenger here but something just doesn't add up. The DHS is buying a ton of bullets and not being totally clear with the reason for this. What about the 2700 APCs they also have purchased? Why does DHS need armored personnel carriers? Add in a very high level of distrust for this administration combined with the gun control rhetoric and you can easily see why people are asking a lot of questions.

 

Look you don't have to believe me if you don't want to. I'm telling you what I've seen and discovered. The estimate of between 80-100k (I had a typo in my first comment) is about as accurate as you are going to see. The agency I work for has a very weak qualification/training regimen and we shoot on the low side of the ammo usage. We still shoot about 1000 rounds per year per officer. Agencies that have higher shooting standards easily shoot three or four times that amount. BP has to shoot longer distances due to the nature of their work being out in the open. FAMS have to be extremely accurate since they are shooting in a very crowded confined area. CBPOs have to be good at close range since most of their threats are within a couple yards. Secret Service has to be good all around. When working the protection detail they have to be able to shoot in a loud confused and crowded scenario. When working crimes they have to be good all around since threats can come from any distance. Also remember that ammo purchase was for a maximum of 1.6 billion rounds and is to be delivered over the course of 5-6 years. When you remove the ammo expected to be used at FLETC that leaves roughly 3000 rounds for each agent/officer for the next five years, not including what the Coast Guard uses. Since some agencies shoot more than others, and all of the agencies have "SWAT" that requires more shooting that doesn't sound like a whole lot of ammo to be buying. Yes, there might be a few hundred thousand extra rounds if all of it is delivered, but tht might very well be shot up by the Coast Guard since none of their shooting was taken into consideration.

The military can't use hollow point ammo during war time. It's against the Geneva Convention, not too mention the goal of the military isn't to kill an enemy combatant on the street. They want that person to be dragged back to a hospital where the enemy state has to provide medical care before the person dies. Hollow point bullets kind of defeat that strategy. What you are confusing is the role of the LE officers in DHS. They are not the military. They are LE. They carry what LE carries; hollow point bullets. The rules for use of force are very different between LE and the military. As the testimony goes when there is an officer involved shooting. "I had exhausted all lower forms of force or they weren't appropriate." Shooting someone as a LEO is a last resort if you jump over a level of force you had better be able to justify it or you are going to jail. As a last resort option you want what is going to stop the threat the fastest. If your wife or daughter were being raped would you want me to have to shoot the rapist seven or eight times before they stopped or only shoot them once or twice to end the nightmare they are causing?

 

I know I've had ammo for 20 years and it still shot fine. I wouldn't have bet my life on it though. That ammo was also kept in a climate controlled environment. If it had been exposed to the humidity, snow, rain, ice, heat and cold like is normally seen while working, I would have switched it out after a couple years. Not only is that ammo used to help others, it helps ensure the person carrying it goes home to their family at night.

The only place I could see them actually needing the MRAP is the south west border. That place is like a war zone in Mexico. Agents/Officers are constantly being shot at by people across the border. If they start placing them in places other than the south west border then I'd start getting concerned.

 

You do know that the number of rounds purchased is the the equivalent of a 24 year Iraq war. US troops used 5.5 million rounds per month.

 

I agree that something must be done to secure the southern border and stop the drug/illegal traffic that goes on down there. However, we all know that both the (R)s and (D)s are working very hard to establish themselves inside the Hispanic community. Stricter border controls always strike a nerve and no body wants to make one of the largest voting blocs mad. Also, the .gov ordered 2700 APCs while the US-Mexico border is 1970 miles long. That would put an APC every 3/4 mile. Either they are really going to do something big down there or something else is afoot.

 

You do realize that using the minimal estimates of 80k LEO's shooting the weakest qualification/training course of approximately 250 rounds is 6.7 million rounds per month. This does not include FLETC or USCG rounds.

 

That 5.5 million rounds a month is by well over 80k millitary personnel on the ground in Iraq.
Also the CBP heads do not believe practice is the way to qualify. They believe it is done with instruction.
Even the 6.7 million rounds a month is still a 20 year supply of ammo. Do you think DHS should be buying a 20 year supply of ammo? Do you want to be firing 20 year old ammo while defending yourself?
There is also no way to tell how many rounds they already had in storage before. The number could easily be 2, 2.5, or 3 billion for all we know.

 

If it was about securing the border, they would have finished a permanent fence instead of buying the 2,700 very portable APCs.

IMO, nothing will be done about the border and the APCs are well suited for use elsewhere.

1depd - I appreciate your take and defense of the big (HUGE) government team, but the writing is on the wall.

Simply put, the government is preparing for ways to keep order in country if/when the crap hits the fan. Not saying if/when it's going to happen, but they are preparing now.

Due to that pesky 2nd amendment and posse comitatus, the 'non-military' portions of the government (reporting to the executive branch) are going to need some armor and lots of bullets. Will the DHS et all be putting their boots on our necks, or doing what is right for the country? I guess that will depend on one's perspective, and whether or not our leaders are angels or tyrants.

 

It is also interesting that with the sequester, CBP has already been notified that they all may be furloughed. Yet they are still buying these 2700 armored vehicles and buying TSA 50 million in new uniforms. And the POTUS and family are still traveling.

 

Back to square one. There are between 80-100k LEOs in DHS. Quarterly they shoot between 250-600 rounds of ammo for the pistol. This is the basic qualification and training performed by DHS. This does not include rounds for the M-4, shotgun, or any other special purpose firearm. This does not include rounds shot at FLETC or by the US Coast Guard. This does not include rounds shot for special units like SRT (DHS component organization's version of SWAT). If you look at the low estimates for personnel and rounds fired that makes it 6.7 million rounds per month. If you look on the high side estimates that is 20 million rounds per month. Again this does NOT include FLETC, SRT, USCG or special purpose rounds. If you average it out it equals 13.35 million rounds fired on average per month just for basic qualification and training to continue to carry a firearm for DHS LEO's not including SRT, FLETC or USCG. The training is NOT to improve your ability. It is scenario based training just like your local officers receive. It is shoot/don't shoot, shooting while moving, low light shooting, shooting while using cover, engaging multiple targets, etc. Most local agencies perform the same type training. DHS issues hollow point ammo to their LEOs because that is what LEOs use. If you don't believe me ask you local cop what type of ammo they have in their pistol.

FLETC lists that they shoot approximately 15 million rounds per year. Over a five year period (the amount of time the contracts cover) they shoot approximately 75 million rounds. Subtract that from the 1.6 billion rounds purchased and you arrive at 995 million rounds to be fired over the next 5 years.

Take the average number of rounds shot during a month 13.35 million rounds and multiply that number by 60 (the number of months in five year, since that is how long all of the various contract cover) and you get 801million rounds of ammo fired just for basic qualification and training of the LEOs in DHS, NOT including USCG or SRT. That is if all of the officer/agents qualify the first time. Is it possible that some of the more specialized agencies shoot a lot more than 600 per qualification on their basic pistol? Is it possible that the remaining roughly 194 million rounds can be accounted for by the USCG and SRT and the shooting of specialized (extra) weapons that most LEOs shoot? I am positive the can be accounted for in that manner. I am also positive that some of the rounds are taken home by some of the officer/agents to practice with (with the agency blessing) and some are removed by shrinkage.

You can continue to believe and article that clearly got wrong the number of LEOs in DHS or you can believe someone who is mildly intimately familiar with the organization you are talking about but is deeply suspect of what the government is doing or attempting to do to the people.

With all of that said, I can tell you I have stepped up my own firearms practice for myself and for my spouse and children. No it's not so I can make sure to hit American citizens, it is so when the SHTF me and mine can get out of dodge and stay safe. I do not trust this administration and I do not trust that the government is going to look out for me or mine, but the ammo issue is a non-issue. There are many other areas to be concerned about with this government.

 

You keep spouting off these numbers, but do not show anywhere you can see these numbers. So far I have yet to find even 60k agents that could be armed, including CBP (including A&M), SS, ICE, and Air Marshals. I do not include the CG as they would seldom be armed and there weapons would be part of a ships equipment, not personal firearms, just like in any military organization. Just give us pointers on where all the rounds fired would occur. I have at least tried to find the numbers, but so far all I have come up with is what I have pointers to.