Excellent post WaveBlaster! Thanks for saying what most of us were probably thinking while reading that drivel.

 

I have my own opinions about the Plazma Booster....I tried one...dynoed with it and then pulled it off and GAVE it away. Thats what it did for me.

So about the valve train thing. Sal....the only time I have seen any 2V head spit rockers is after the cylinder head has been RE-set up by some genious.
The way they come stock I don't think there is enough room for the rockers to come out because the valve train is factory set with a lot of lifter preload.
So what I'm saying is the adjuster could still float the valve a little, but in the mean time it couldn't get loose enough during the valve float phase to actually spit a rocker. (this is just my opinion, I don't have numbers to back it up)

Herb and I have been dealing with a truck up here that has spit rockers on both the left and right side, its bent valves, banged pistons and everything else. The heads were set up by a shop that wasn't exactly our first choice.
I didn't take the opportunity to get in there and do some measuring but now I wish I could have.
Dale
PS...using our regular shop or shops...we have never had a problem, but these places are the most expensive too

 

Just got to reading these posts. I run a 6 lower and stock upper (2.70) and have a best of 11.58 at just under 116. Geez, how does my MP do it? and Fred's, and Gator's, all consistent 11 trucks? Is it Jim's tune, the blower, great driving, luck? I don't feel i have any issues regarding valve springs. I intend to keep pushing my stock block and just lower some weight (roll pan next) to keep Fred off my record. I've had the first MP production blower on for well over a year now and i am totally happy with it on the street and track. Best buck for performance i could have ever spent and would do it again tomorrow. By the way, i had a buddy's girlfriend recently bounce my time above with a stock block Kenne Bell. Real nice running truck and she knows how to drive it. I have never said that the MP can outdue a similar KB truck but did say the MP would hang within around 2 tenth's. It DOES. I haven't had a stock block ported truck come close, why not if they apparently run the same HP and TQ, quite a mystery.

 

why can't you bring each cylinder to tdc and pressurize the cylinder with air to keep the valves close to just change the springs. This was easy on flat head engines. Is there a difference on overhead cams???

Rob, maybe swap out a set of injectors and see if there was any difference.

I recall there being alot of injector tuning issues whent he Kenne Bell's first came out. some trucks ran great on 50-55lbs, some trucks ran better on the 60's.

I think Don's Bolt had some issue with the 60's on his application, which is very common to alot of KB trucks.......and went back to the 55, or 50's and had better results.......

Maybe he can fix that up for me.

 

How many of the MP trucks that run good times at the track have big converters, and all the traction mods etc.... And some of the best tracks to run at on the East Coast if not the whole US.

I know here we don't really have a 1/4 mile anywhere close; the ones that are close are poor to say the least. And the 1/8th miles have basically gone to hell.

 

[QUOTE=LightningTuner]That statement couldn't be more untrue. It takes WAY more power to drive a screw blower (any brand) than to drive a roots blower. And KBs are not that efficiant, they have the highest IAT2 temps of all the power adders I've ever tuned on these trucks. They make power because of their much larger displacement over any Eaton based blower. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________- I am going to qoute from a book called "Supercharged" by Corky Bell(wonder if there is any relation to KB.)?
" The twin screw enjoys high thermal effciancy,almost equal to that of a centrifugal compressor, This allows the twin scew to lay claim to the highest thermal effciancy of any fixed displacement compressor, due in large part to its internal compression ratio. The twin screw can run in excess of 70% thermal efficiancy for most of its range ,like the other 2 types ,root and centrifugal, however , it loses effciancy at both low flow and maximum pressure."" The twin screw's ability to pump it internal volume of air per revolution approaches 95% at low pressures. Volumetric effciancy drops off as the pressure ratio rises,just as with the roots.At boost pressures near 30 psi the volumetric efficiancy of the screw can drop as low as 80%."" Never the less, due to tight clearences of the rotors, the twin screw is the most potent of all superchargers for producing high boost pressure at low engine speeds." I would never doubt your Lightning knowledge Sal , I have been been reading your posts for a long time now. I'm just a tinkerer in my garage and do just about all my own work. I have never data logged anything before ,so I only know about what i read and see , and seat of the pants. I was one of the first 50 people to get my KB when they first came out from JL. I had been running the stock eaton at 14psi , dynoed at 400hp and 476 tq on the stock tune 67deg temp ,no chip or programming. Upon installation of the KB no tune or program at 15psi boost and 85deg temp i dynod 465hp
555 tq and a 12.2 a/f ratio (Struck in AZ) can back me up on that. Seat of the pants was a definte improvement as soon as i drove around the block i could feel it had a constant acceleration in the higher rpms. The same night i dynoed it ,i ran it at the track 12.90et at 112mph, street tires , first gear was useless, second and third it pulled really well there was a definate increase in hp with that kinda of mph.Previous best et was 13.4sec and 40deg out. What can you attribute to my horesepower increase ?the extra 1 psi boost? I was thinking it was more of the pulley ratio , using less horsepower to turn the KB, kinda like adding power pullies to slow down your accesories ,giving more power to the rear wheels. Some of the horsepower increase i thought was due to the lower blower exit temps also. I'm willing to send you my KB for a fair test, It's sitting on my workbench anyway, against the MP, and ported eaton. I would like to see datalogs between the blowers on the same truck, same day ,same boost levels low end, one at 12 or 14psi and one at high end 20 psi diffrent tune of course for the 20psi runs. I would personally like to know and i'm sure the L community also which is the best. I thought about this later , The factory where i work uses large gardener/denver screw compressors for plant air system. They were the most eff. units you could buy ,and cost per kilowatt hour.

 

My truck has an 8# lower on a ported eaton. It weighs in at 5100lbs with me in it and with a converter and slick I have no doubt it would go decently in the 11s. I probably wouldn't trap 116, but who cares about trap. To be honest even if I ran an 11.9 without a converter (which I don't know if you have, you just said you have a MP and listed no other mods so your comparison is semi-useless) then with a converter I should clock off an 11.7 or lower. So that's about two tenths difference. Just like the KB wasn't worth two tenths to you, the MP sure isn't worth 2 tenths to me. I'm glad that the MP was attractive for you, but for the majority unless it shows me some real results OVER the ported eaton I'm not impressed and I wouldn't pay to upgrade. I'd rather save and wait for a Whipple.

Trust me I'd LOVE to see a decent aftermarket blower out there. (One that was available, as I'm 100% confident the whipple is gonna crack some asses.)

I'm very happy for you that you have had great success with your MP blower, but to say that it's all because JDM is the only person who can tune them is a bit much for me to swallow.

 

Seems to me that it is difficult for some to grasp the fact that pushing performance from approx. the 12.0 range down takes exponentialy more $$ and time to dial in the setup. I am very happy with a small increase in HP I see with my MP over the PE.
I also fail to see the significance of not needing to add timing to gain power. If your street tune can be equal to your race tune that seems to be a good situation to me. It allows a nitrous tune and a winter/safe tune and the street/race tune on the SCT programmer without the extra race gas tune.(not needing race fuel is also a plus). This is especially true in Robs case as he always runs nitrous street or strip.
I am hoping to see the max effort PE tune graphs as I am willing to learn, and reevaluate my combo continuously.
Jim

 

FF

 

Geeze waveblaster. You sure have a big mouth for a guy with such a slow running truck..... .


Look me up at the track sometime hotshot....but please clean Sals spunk off your face first.....

 

Yeah...I suppose after you get done swallowing for Sal.....it will be easier for you....

 

Wrong Casey...I never said Sal doesn't know WTF he is doing. He does put his pants on like everybody else. The issues I pointed out are for real. When you start trying to make big numbers, many pieces have to come together properely. His truck does not sond like it is ready for 22 pounds of boost. He needs bigger injectors at the least. I have been told by more than one tuner, that the MAF extender is not the best way to go. The SCT Big Air is fairly inexpensive. Why not give it a chance with all the proper supporting mods????

Maybe Sal has told Rob some of these things already. Maybe Rob can't do it right now. But it is a bit prmature to throw out a good blower alternative just yet.


Rocks


One more thing Casey. I actually thought Sal was selling MP blowers. My thoughts expressed have nothing to do with selling anything. It is your right to dislike my thoughts. I have no problem with that. But get personal and I will get personal right back at ya.

 

We did two things recently that we have to wait and see if it makes a diff.
We put Denso IT 22's in, and dumped the Plasma Booster.

Both were done for very obvious reasons

#1- The Plasma Booster has been giving us trouble both on and off the dyno.
We have made Dyno runs diff times with it connected and not connected, on the Mag and on the Eaton. In NO OCASSION did we gain ANY HP or TQ, and in some ocassions actually DID without it. With the PB off, there is NO tach sig issue, and it so happens that tach signal dropping out, and most reoccurring burn plug, and the light on the box that drops out ocassionally, all come from the same place, SO BYE BYE PLASMA BOOSTER.

#2- The Denso's. Ok they go against the n20 rule, BUT I have ALWAYS had terrible results in the past with NGK's, and so far a nightmare with them this time, and I have ALWAYS had perfect results from the Denso's, SO BYE BYE NGK's

As for the injectors and why Sal is possibaly pointing to them ?
For whatever reason, each of the three times I pulled the NGK BR7's no two have been a like, not something you want to see in your plugs.
Out of eight, usually I'll have 1-3 bad ones, a few white ones, and a few grey ones. Never no consistancy, this is what points us to the Injectors, or the PB, or the Plugs in General.
Two out of Three of those possibilty's are now removed.

John, Freddy, Gator, and many others are all great people, most are my friends, and yes THEY ARE ALL having great results with the Mag, (no-one has ever disputed that SOME do have good results).

But lets not also forget that I was there, "and most of you were there", when Gator first showed up at the 1320 with his. He snuck it on his stock block L, had it JDM dyno-tuned, showed a 30-40 HP improvement over the Apten (I believe it was) and then ran the identicle times he had been for the previous 2 years. YES now that Mag is reborn on a top of the line JDM Motor and man is it putting out big #'s, but on the stock block it did NOTHING.

The issue here is, why doesn't EVERYONE show the results.......
No one is bashing the Mag, no one is giving up on the Mag, I simply tried something diff to see if I can get tunability back, and WAM it worked,
DAM GOOD I may add. Not only did I gain tunability AGAIN, but we actually picked up a good amount of HP and TQ from idle all the way up,
I also picked up power on the n20 tune, and did it all with less boost to boot.
I can tell you this, I've been spending every entire driving second in the L since the Dyno, and I put A LOT of seat time in it this week.
Right now this truck is
def
by far
"no bout adout it"
running thee best it has ever ran.
It is the most responsive, the smoothest, the most powerful it has ever been PERIOD.

As for the Maf Extender and schitt Injectors as you all seem to call them.
I disagree fully that they aren't enough, I do believe due to reading the plugs that maybe there is a consistancy issue with the injectors, but you've seen AF after AF and they are as straight as an arrow, and well under 5V.

My goal of 480-500 off Spray IMO can be done on the Stock Inj's and Maf,
there is NO REASON it can not be done on 50's and the Maf Extender.
(agian maybe there is a consistancy issue in the inj's, I'm open to that)
The other 100-150 HP I have is NOT in need of any more fuel from the Injectors, that is supplied via a Stainless Steel line, not the Injectors,
OR THE COMPUTER.

At this point, I DEF fell this "Spring Thing" could account for ALL my issues.
Def could be dumping power
(although I would think I would feel or hear SOMETHING, no ???)
Could DEF be the plug issue
N20 Issue
and I'm not sure about the timing issue, but I'm open......

Do I want to address that issue, (yes for the sake of the community)
but if my choice is to do the springs, I would be nuts not to do cams too.
I'd be insane to do springs and hope to pick up another 10 HP or so, CAUSE THATS ALL MY GUESS IT WOULD BE, (how much do you think ??? )
And not add prob double that with cams. Then of course the prob is I'm looking at prob 2-3 K in parts and labor. At that point any sane man would say, why not just bolt a KB on it and do nothing else???

 

Again, I haven't heard anyone say this. All we have heard is people who have magnums that happened to be tuned by JDM with success. Sal has already said that he's had some guys with Magnums that weren't impressed with the results as tuned by JDM come to him. Stop making up crap to stir the pot. We are all trying to figure out what is going on here.

Just because your a/f is on as a hole, doesn't mean that your aren't having problems. Same thing with the maf. Just because your floating in the 4.7 range still doesn't mean that everything was kosher. I can recall again, Don's Bolt having some issues when trying to tune with his Pro M Maf. He eventually got rid of it because he couldn't get his truck dialed in with it.

And I use Don as an example because he was a big test mule with the KB's first came out and I know Jim spent alot of time with Don's truck on the dyno. Don and I are friends and we talk alot off the boards but if you do a search there were alot of post on updates/progress and numbers when these KB's came out.

I know the stock fuel system is supposed to be good to 500 rwhp but most truck that i've seen.......even on stock or ported blowers running say 6lb lowers and 2lb uppers......or in the 16lbs range definetely show a major lean out on the dyno a/f. Very common to see the maf get maxed out in the 4800 rpm range. Has anyone broken 500 hp off spray on the stock maf and fuel system and run consistantly........not just like one pass down the track?


I think if the valve springs are the issue....you could be loosing alot more than 10 hp. I think you would be loosing power consistantly across the field in the upper rpm range........where this magnum is supposed to shine.

Maybe you have spring issues AND maf/injector issues. Just because your a/f is ok doesn't mean your not being robbed of power.

And as far as saying....for all this, would have been worth it to put the KB on...... I think people are missing the point here.

If you DID have a KB, i think you would be having the same problems....if not worse. Like previously stated..........these s/c's are just air pumps. If the fuel system/electronics, and mechanical aspects of the motor or not receptive to this "air pump", you have to make adjustments to see results.

I think just because you went and did this "budget buildup" and weren't looking for the 6-700 hp results that some guys were after with the KB, you feel like you shouldn't be seeing all these problems. The fact of the matter is this is what happens when SO MANY components get changed from stock set up. Just like your truck hates TR6's, and some trucks like them. You are running the same issues possible with the maf extender, injectors, and blower.

I hope everything get's straightened out real soon for you.

I went through hell with my truck last year just from putting a set of headers and high flows on. No big deal right? Threw my tune way off for some reason and cost me alot of greif and alot of money. New O2's, plugs, coil packs, sensors..........And all just because of HEADERS!!!

You can get discouraged and your entited to be, but you have to know in the back of your mind that this can and does happen. The way i felt last year is I'll pull everything off and go back to a chip and filter combo and still be happy. Not bad for a worse case scenario?

 

Everybody says something about the injectors and the maf extender. The MAF is simply a meter giving the computer a voltage reading. They said they are seeing 4.6x volts which is great that is VERY useable by the computer. On the injectors the A/F looks great. The only way I would call the inj the problem if Sal was telling the truck to do a 11.5 A/F and it was doing 12.0 or soforth. If it'd doing within .1~.2 A/F of what he tells it to do without major tuning then all should be good to go.