Mike Wesley's response to Chip vs. Reflash
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Mike Wesley's response to Chip vs. Reflash
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...6680#post26680
Since I've seen my name (and company name) brought up in these threads.. figure time to say something.
What I think is being confused here is what exactly a chip does and what exactly a re-FLASH does.
We have been doing chips since 1989 and re-FLASH since about 1998 (allthough we haven't released re-FLASH capability yet).
A rev limiter changed in a chip is at the exact same address as it would be in a re-FLASH. A Chip is not 'fooling' anything like someone mentioned. A chip is just a differnt method to present the data to the CPU vs re-writing the internal FLASH memory.
There are control signlas on the 'chip connector' that tell the PCM to 'go here' or 'go here' to get your data depending on the state of the signals. If you load a chip with a stock program, re-FLASH a PCM with a stock program.. instruction for instruction, data byte for data byte they will be 100% identical. Only difference is WHERE the data is coming from (offboard vs onboard).
What Mark is offerering is a re-FLASH containing a new calibration. I don't think it's a new strategy (but possible). It's the calibration that determines how a particular strategy will run.
Ford (and thier other calibration houses) can and do make mistakes in the calibrations. 99 Cobra is one example (and no.. I had nothing to do with the fix.. if I did, it would be worth more than 5HP they got).
Forgetting to turn on the knock sensors in the Gen 2 Lightnings was another mistake (maybe on purpose) a Ford calibration house made (among others).
When Ford or thier calibration subs develop a calibration.. they have to be ultra conservative since they have no idea where the vehicle will end up, what fuel will be used, etc. That leave alot of room for aftermarket 'calibrators' to go in and make changes.
We all have access to the same data in the PCM's (chip'ed or FLASH'ed.. doesn't matter). It's what you do with the data that can make the difference. As long as the strategy is the same, each calibrator(tuner) has the same basic thigns to work with. There is nothing added, or removed.. only changed data. Well.. you can patch the code I guess... but I haven't seen anyone do that yet. You can assemble 4 calibrators(tuners) and they will all do thigns differently to get the same end result.
I have my way, you have your way, he has his way.
As for the "this vs that" debate.. buy what you feel comfortable with. Either way you should be happy with your purchase.
Mike Wesley - AutoLogic
What I think is being confused here is what exactly a chip does and what exactly a re-FLASH does.
We have been doing chips since 1989 and re-FLASH since about 1998 (allthough we haven't released re-FLASH capability yet).
A rev limiter changed in a chip is at the exact same address as it would be in a re-FLASH. A Chip is not 'fooling' anything like someone mentioned. A chip is just a differnt method to present the data to the CPU vs re-writing the internal FLASH memory.
There are control signlas on the 'chip connector' that tell the PCM to 'go here' or 'go here' to get your data depending on the state of the signals. If you load a chip with a stock program, re-FLASH a PCM with a stock program.. instruction for instruction, data byte for data byte they will be 100% identical. Only difference is WHERE the data is coming from (offboard vs onboard).
What Mark is offerering is a re-FLASH containing a new calibration. I don't think it's a new strategy (but possible). It's the calibration that determines how a particular strategy will run.
Ford (and thier other calibration houses) can and do make mistakes in the calibrations. 99 Cobra is one example (and no.. I had nothing to do with the fix.. if I did, it would be worth more than 5HP they got).
Forgetting to turn on the knock sensors in the Gen 2 Lightnings was another mistake (maybe on purpose) a Ford calibration house made (among others).
When Ford or thier calibration subs develop a calibration.. they have to be ultra conservative since they have no idea where the vehicle will end up, what fuel will be used, etc. That leave alot of room for aftermarket 'calibrators' to go in and make changes.
We all have access to the same data in the PCM's (chip'ed or FLASH'ed.. doesn't matter). It's what you do with the data that can make the difference. As long as the strategy is the same, each calibrator(tuner) has the same basic thigns to work with. There is nothing added, or removed.. only changed data. Well.. you can patch the code I guess... but I haven't seen anyone do that yet. You can assemble 4 calibrators(tuners) and they will all do thigns differently to get the same end result.
I have my way, you have your way, he has his way.
As for the "this vs that" debate.. buy what you feel comfortable with. Either way you should be happy with your purchase.
Mike Wesley - AutoLogic
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Ok so based on what Mike said, I gather this. The only advantage of the Reflash/Predator is the dealer wont void your warranty. To me that is a big plus but here is another question, What happens if I take my truck in and dealer and the reflash my computer ? Do I lose all the calibrations I just paid for ?Please dont bore me by saying dont have the dealer do the reflash. What is the price on this BOP reflash ? The big seller on reflash technology is the fact that dealer cant gimme chit for a chip when my A/C doesnt cool. Im also more interested in the Predator because it offer multiple programs and real time data. This tool itself seems to offer the best of both worlds. I can run a aggresive program for the track and high octane fuel, then have a nice program for street driving. It even goes a step further and will let me make slight changes in fuel, spark and transmission functions. Again, Im just going on the info that Diablo has released. (If the product will ever appear is another story) In my 02 F350 Powerstroke, I have a StupidChip power programer and love it. I run the high hp program everyday and when towing the trailer (10,000lbs) I step it down to the Medium program. I have towed in the High Horsepower program but in Mountains had to keep a careful eye on EGTs.
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From: here
Originally posted by BuzzzLightyear
What happens if I take my truck in and dealer and the reflash my computer ? Do I lose all the calibrations I just paid for ? .
What happens if I take my truck in and dealer and the reflash my computer ? Do I lose all the calibrations I just paid for ? .
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From: RogersAr
The one thing I am wondering is if.You were to hook up the ngs tool to the 'reflash' computer what will the vehicle show up as?I know that on some stangs I have done it shows up as a 6cyl ranger.Has anyone tried hooking up a scanner yet? IF it does show something different then they will still know the pcm has been tampered with and still void your warranty maybe even faster since you are now trying to deceive ford.Or at least in their eyes.Stan
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From: Illinois
Kind of surprised more reflash guys have not replied...well maybe not
There is always more than one way to skin a cat...
There is always more than one way to skin a cat...
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From: Lexington, KY
Originally posted by JeffsLightning
Kind of surprised more reflash guys have not replied...well maybe not. There is always more than one way to skin a cat...
Kind of surprised more reflash guys have not replied...well maybe not. There is always more than one way to skin a cat...
and he is a stand up guy. Thanks and props to Mike for standing
up and removing some of the BS ideas about programming these
beasts. As I mentioned AGES ago, the data HAS to be in the same
place for everyone, so figuring out what goes where is the trick.
Mike seems to always be among the first to do that for each
new computer and car. You can't go too far wrong with the
Auto-Logic chip!!!
Cliff
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From: Huntington Beach/CA
Autologic wasnt the first to release a 2002 Lightning table.
At any rate, your predator is very limited. Sure, you can take your custom file and tweak it a couple of notches back and fourth for timing and fuel. Its versatile for its application and for many people who basically stop at a certain amount of mods. It still doesnt compete with a recalibrated PCM though. Were talking two very different applications.
Another thing that i was told re: the predator, whomever made your current file has to be the one who loads it into the predator obviously.
Will the predator still allow you to plug in a chip with multiple programs while its flashed? I would really like to know.
At any rate, your predator is very limited. Sure, you can take your custom file and tweak it a couple of notches back and fourth for timing and fuel. Its versatile for its application and for many people who basically stop at a certain amount of mods. It still doesnt compete with a recalibrated PCM though. Were talking two very different applications.
Another thing that i was told re: the predator, whomever made your current file has to be the one who loads it into the predator obviously.
Will the predator still allow you to plug in a chip with multiple programs while its flashed? I would really like to know.
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From: Central Florida
Originally posted by TheRipper
I didn't read anything in his response about how the reflash will adapt for added mods
I didn't read anything in his response about how the reflash will adapt for added mods
Mikes response was not "chip vs. reflash". His response was only about the similar results that each can achieve given a set of parameters. Take the chip into the real world vs the reflash and that is where things change. Add more airflow to the chip and see more differentiation between it and the reflash.
Perhaps the question was positioned to Mike incorrectly. Perhaps Mike positioned his response that way on purpose.
Jim
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From: TEXAS
Originally posted by jmimac351
That is very true. It is not in question whether you can tune a motor for added mods by using a chip. That's been proven. The great advantage of the reflash is its ability to adjust to additional mods, within reason, and still reach its A/F goal. And not only adjust for mods, but adjust with the same mods for a different weather condition.
Mikes response was not "chip vs. reflash". His response was only about the similar results that each can achieve given a set of parameters. Take the chip into the real world vs the reflash and that is where things change. Add more airflow to the chip and see more differentiation between it and the reflash.
Perhaps the question was positioned to Mike incorrectly. Perhaps Mike positioned his response that way on purpose.
Jim
That is very true. It is not in question whether you can tune a motor for added mods by using a chip. That's been proven. The great advantage of the reflash is its ability to adjust to additional mods, within reason, and still reach its A/F goal. And not only adjust for mods, but adjust with the same mods for a different weather condition.
Mikes response was not "chip vs. reflash". His response was only about the similar results that each can achieve given a set of parameters. Take the chip into the real world vs the reflash and that is where things change. Add more airflow to the chip and see more differentiation between it and the reflash.
Perhaps the question was positioned to Mike incorrectly. Perhaps Mike positioned his response that way on purpose.
Jim
NO one argues that the O2 sensors dont work in the WOT range we are looking for, so that statement to me is crazy.
I know you stated that the reflash uses other sensors to "reach its A/F goal"
- But thats misleading because its not an A/F goal is is reading off a static table. SO its a static table goal ( maf voltage+RPM+IAT+X ) NOT A/F
JUST like the Chip can do at the same point. It can take MAF voltage and intake temps and make adjustments based on those....
Doug
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From: Lexington, KY
Originally posted by Flying ****
Autologic wasn't the first to release a 2002 Lightning table.
Autologic wasn't the first to release a 2002 Lightning table.
complete 2002 Lightning table, **** ...
What I was refering to was the statement that Mike had
attributed to him that he didn't release a chip until he
understood and had decoded all the parms. As opposed to
some other tuners that released chips for the 2002 as soon
as they found the A/F and shift tables. Being first to market
may have contributed to some of the early engines blowing
up, but that is just my opinion.
To bear this out, Autologic is now able to overcome the PATS
per Sal's post of a few weeks ago.
Personally, I will always prefer to have someone that REALLY
understands ALL the implications of the tables, than someone
who may just appropriate someone elses prior work and tweak
the tables a bit. It's like going to the author rather than the
printer for your information.
It should be very interesting to see the developments of both
of these methodologies over the next few months. Will there
be blown engines with re-flashes? Probably ... But that's the
price to pay for being "pioneers" ... You get arrows in your back
a lot.......
Good luck to all the "new" technology advocates ...
Cliff