Mike Wesley's response to Chip vs. Reflash
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Did Nate he have some testing with the re-calibrated pcm with mods #1, and then swap over to mods #2 and redyno? Or is this the first time? I do not know who Nate is, so that is why I'm asking. Thanks.
As for those referring to me as JJ, I'm not. I'm Lance that lives in MS.
As for those referring to me as JJ, I'm not. I'm Lance that lives in MS.
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From: TEXAS
Originally posted by Onelfastlride
I don't claim to even begin to understand the EEC programming logic. But I can reconize when I'm being educated by someone with knowledge, education, and experience. Thor01 has practically spelled it out. It can't get any more clear. Guys.......everyone is being offered a service from someone who has an education, training, career, and the skill to do some good stuff. It's not just someone that's learned from trial and error. They know more then x+y = z, they know the theory behind it.
I don't claim to even begin to understand the EEC programming logic. But I can reconize when I'm being educated by someone with knowledge, education, and experience. Thor01 has practically spelled it out. It can't get any more clear. Guys.......everyone is being offered a service from someone who has an education, training, career, and the skill to do some good stuff. It's not just someone that's learned from trial and error. They know more then x+y = z, they know the theory behind it.
The issue I have is that the story keeps changing. And that there has been no testing of the claims.
Nate is a local guy.
We'll see what his feed back is. But the real test will be to go to the dyno with the TALON guys and Take mods off one truck and pop them on Nates and do a compare.
Another problem is that the Msystery man is clearly interested in getting people set up to either market or do the flashes for him around the country. And it appears that one or 2 of them are here relentlessly PUMPing the product...
Doug
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From: Florida
Originally posted by Gen2 Lightning
As for those referring to me as JJ, I'm not. I'm Lance that lives in MS.
As for those referring to me as JJ, I'm not. I'm Lance that lives in MS.
What do you do for a living? You must be some sort of tuner/mechanic if you have such experience. You use the Diablo Pedator also?
You did say my Cobra goes against the laws of physics and there's no way it made power at such a high rpm without falling off. What do you base this on? Why did Ford lower the engine redline?
If you know, I'm happy to listen.
Thanks
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Originally posted by Onelfastlride
You did say my Cobra goes against the laws of physics and there's no way it made power at such a high rpm without falling off. What do you base this on?
You did say my Cobra goes against the laws of physics and there's no way it made power at such a high rpm without falling off. What do you base this on?
Find me a dynograph of another modded Cobra, okay find me 10 dynographs, or more, of modded Cobras, with the factory blower and factory boost level (no pulley change), and show me that it made peak power past 6300 (and the majority of them aren't even that).
That dyno was definitely NOT right on the rpm/power measurement.
Last edited by Gen2 Lightning; Jul 9, 2003 at 01:02 AM.
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From: TEXAS
Originally posted by Gen2 Lightning
From what you have said, it shows that you have the ONLY Cobra in the world that makes peak power at 6900 with the stock blower.
Find me a dynograph of another modded Cobra, okay find me 10 dynographs, or more, of modded Cobras, with the factory blower, and show me that it made peak power past 6300 (and the majority of them aren't even that).
That dyno was definitely NOT right on the rpm/power measurement.
From what you have said, it shows that you have the ONLY Cobra in the world that makes peak power at 6900 with the stock blower.
Find me a dynograph of another modded Cobra, okay find me 10 dynographs, or more, of modded Cobras, with the factory blower, and show me that it made peak power past 6300 (and the majority of them aren't even that).
That dyno was definitely NOT right on the rpm/power measurement.
Uhh nice time slip frame it - its cool - BUT dont start believing your truck really went that fast... It was clearly a timing error but he was VERY proud of it and tried to get people to belive him..
Doug
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From: Huntington Beach/CA
Gen 2:
As for what exactly the Predator offers options wise for Gas vehicles, aside from the custom tune, or on top of the custom tune, here is a list:
Axle Ratio: Can adjust from a 2.xx up to a 6.xx in .01 increments.
Cooling Fans: Will adjust both ON and OFF in 1 degree increments up/down.
Power Enrichment (Fuel): Will adjust from -5% to +5% at WOT
Spark (Timing): Will adjust from from -10% to +10% at WOT
Shift Adaption (duration): Allows user to adjust the time delay during the gear change, i.e. quickness of the shift, from -25% up to +25%
Shift Points (MPH): Allows user to adjust at what MPH the shift should take place, for each individual gear, in 1 mph increments.
Shift Points (RPM): Allows user to adjust at what RPM the shift should take place, for each individual gear, in 10 rpm increments.
Shift Pressure: Allows user to adjust the firmness of the shift action, for each individual gear, from -25% up to +25%
Rev Limit: Allows user to adjust ON/OFF rev limits, for each individual gear, in 10 rpm increments.
Wheel Sizing:
Factory Wheel Size: Enter the factory tire size in XXX/XX-XX format, i.e. 275/40-17
Actual Wheel Size: Enter the actual tire size in XXX/XX-XX format, i.e. 305/35-18
The Predator then calculates the difference in overall height for proper speedo calibration.
As for what exactly the Predator offers options wise for Gas vehicles, aside from the custom tune, or on top of the custom tune, here is a list:
Axle Ratio: Can adjust from a 2.xx up to a 6.xx in .01 increments.
Cooling Fans: Will adjust both ON and OFF in 1 degree increments up/down.
Power Enrichment (Fuel): Will adjust from -5% to +5% at WOT
Spark (Timing): Will adjust from from -10% to +10% at WOT
Shift Adaption (duration): Allows user to adjust the time delay during the gear change, i.e. quickness of the shift, from -25% up to +25%
Shift Points (MPH): Allows user to adjust at what MPH the shift should take place, for each individual gear, in 1 mph increments.
Shift Points (RPM): Allows user to adjust at what RPM the shift should take place, for each individual gear, in 10 rpm increments.
Shift Pressure: Allows user to adjust the firmness of the shift action, for each individual gear, from -25% up to +25%
Rev Limit: Allows user to adjust ON/OFF rev limits, for each individual gear, in 10 rpm increments.
Wheel Sizing:
Factory Wheel Size: Enter the factory tire size in XXX/XX-XX format, i.e. 275/40-17
Actual Wheel Size: Enter the actual tire size in XXX/XX-XX format, i.e. 305/35-18
The Predator then calculates the difference in overall height for proper speedo calibration.
So at 16 degrees of initial timing @ WOT, you can only increase or decrease it by 1.5 degrees? Hmm. Not much flexibility there.
Shift pressure is meaningless since most of us use an accumulator or line mod. For a stock guy, this is a plus or those who want jar jarring shifting with a VB or Line mod.
Im not affected by gear ratio change, but guys with 99/00's can use this if they made the switch to 3.73 or others who have stepped up to 4.10. I still dont have a use for it.
Shift points. Hmm, prefer to have mine tailored to where power drops on the dyno. Others could use this feature i guess.
Cooling fans.. umm, we dont have electric fans.
Rev limiter. Could be useful for those guys with built motors with ported heads.
Gen2:
You can't do any of that yourself after your "re-calibration". There's many instances where these options would come in handy, on the street, at the track, or especially in saving you the time and money of having to send it back just to get 100 more rpms on the shift for a specific gear only, or a slightly firmer, and/or quicker shifting.
So does your "re-calibration" adapt to your mindwaves and realize that you want it to shift at 5400 on the track, and just 5200 around town? LOL! Sorry, I had to add in some humor to this.
You can't do any of that yourself after your "re-calibration". There's many instances where these options would come in handy, on the street, at the track, or especially in saving you the time and money of having to send it back just to get 100 more rpms on the shift for a specific gear only, or a slightly firmer, and/or quicker shifting.
So does your "re-calibration" adapt to your mindwaves and realize that you want it to shift at 5400 on the track, and just 5200 around town? LOL! Sorry, I had to add in some humor to this.
Your ability to pull 1.5 degrees of timing most certainly wont make or break you at the track. I can just see everyone saying " i need 100 rpm more through the traps " lol. Good effort on that argument lance, but no dice brother.
Gen 2:
Why wouldn't they? Sure, they can ship your Predator with a custom tune in it before it gets sent to you, but when you need a different tune for different mods, or if the initial tune wasn't right, then it would be redone and sent to the end-user via the internet. If you need a new tune, you get the file. The file will require serialization by the dealer, or Diablo, to work with your specific Predator so the file will not be whored around on the internet.
Why wouldn't they? Sure, they can ship your Predator with a custom tune in it before it gets sent to you, but when you need a different tune for different mods, or if the initial tune wasn't right, then it would be redone and sent to the end-user via the internet. If you need a new tune, you get the file. The file will require serialization by the dealer, or Diablo, to work with your specific Predator so the file will not be whored around on the internet.
Gen2
Mike Wesley elaborated on this some over on www.ModularFords.com as well. Here was his post:
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/...26779#post26779
Also, please refer to what Sal said.
That is completely untrue. I don't know why you guys think a factory or chipped PCM can't make weather changes. The factory calibration reads air temp via the IAT1 sensor, and reads air pressure/altitude via the BAP sensor. From there, it knows exaclty the incoming air conditions, and can make adjustments accordingly. That is why you can drive the same stock Lightning at sea level, and then at 5000 ft with no problems.
You guys need to get off this "a chip limits the PCM" thing, because it's totally wrong. A PCM is a computer, a computer runs off programs, and programs run off inputted data. The chip just inputs new data for those programs to use. Nothing is limited or disabled. The PCM still performs the same functions with a chip on it.
Mike Wesley elaborated on this some over on www.ModularFords.com as well. Here was his post:
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/...26779#post26779
Also, please refer to what Sal said.
That is completely untrue. I don't know why you guys think a factory or chipped PCM can't make weather changes. The factory calibration reads air temp via the IAT1 sensor, and reads air pressure/altitude via the BAP sensor. From there, it knows exaclty the incoming air conditions, and can make adjustments accordingly. That is why you can drive the same stock Lightning at sea level, and then at 5000 ft with no problems.
You guys need to get off this "a chip limits the PCM" thing, because it's totally wrong. A PCM is a computer, a computer runs off programs, and programs run off inputted data. The chip just inputs new data for those programs to use. Nothing is limited or disabled. The PCM still performs the same functions with a chip on it.
And i still say Sal is wrong. You stick the chip in the J3 port, it no longer searches its own tables to make adjustments. Its being fed a custom table and thats all it has. Theres no longer any adjustments being made to keep you safe bud.
Gen2
This isn't anything new! Regardless, what's so big about this? It's the same way with Superchips dealers. By the way, Nick does not make files for Diablo. It's Patrick Stadjel, Willie Figueroa, and Johan Mangs. Eventually, there will be Diablo dealers with the capability to do this themselves, using the Revolution software.
This isn't anything new! Regardless, what's so big about this? It's the same way with Superchips dealers. By the way, Nick does not make files for Diablo. It's Patrick Stadjel, Willie Figueroa, and Johan Mangs. Eventually, there will be Diablo dealers with the capability to do this themselves, using the Revolution software.
Gen2
Anyone with a Revolution burner, or a Deltachip burner, can take and read the file from a pcm, and then pass that info on to Diablo. Same with Autologic dealers. I'm not sure about Superchips dealers.
As for "locking", why would he do that? To render the pcm useless for when you need to have a custom tune done in person from another company? So you're advocating this? I do not understand. Ed Wright and Steve Cole both do this in the GM world, and do you know how many owner's this frustrates. These two companies both have many issues with customer service as well, and the program locking is just one of them, as the customer's pcm becomes totally useless for reprogramming by other tuning companies, even to many GM dealers trying to reflash it (doesn't let them).
Anyone with a Revolution burner, or a Deltachip burner, can take and read the file from a pcm, and then pass that info on to Diablo. Same with Autologic dealers. I'm not sure about Superchips dealers.
As for "locking", why would he do that? To render the pcm useless for when you need to have a custom tune done in person from another company? So you're advocating this? I do not understand. Ed Wright and Steve Cole both do this in the GM world, and do you know how many owner's this frustrates. These two companies both have many issues with customer service as well, and the program locking is just one of them, as the customer's pcm becomes totally useless for reprogramming by other tuning companies, even to many GM dealers trying to reflash it (doesn't let them).
Remember, this isnt a " file " dude. Its an entirely recalibrated PCM. Mike said himself that strageies change and it takes time to get the information. What makes you think this guy hasnt " changed " his stragety to keep peeps like you from looking at his stuff? Makes a lot of sense to me.
It doesnt matter if the recalibrated PCM is locked. Its not you or anyone else has the ability to go in and play with the tables. We do not have the software/hardware capabilities like the LS-1 guys, so its a complete and moot point to bring up. I havent heard of any bad customer service from BOP and i doubt we will, so i dont see how his customers would be " pissed off " because they cant read the locked stragety within the recalibration anyhow. I figure, if they had this ability, they wouldnt be needing a recal to begin with, they would make their own.
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Theres a small margin of people who actually custom dyno tune diablo's. i did it for 6 months out here
If thats true, then why did you want JL to do a chip for you recently?
You stick the chip in the J3 port, it no longer searches its own tables to make adjustments. Its being fed a custom table and thats all it has.
And this is the whole problem with team reflash, they are giving out incorrect info on what this thing can do, who does it, and the story keeps changing.
Please answer my question about how the reflash reaches its A/F goal without looking at the 02's, and explain in detail how it does this by only looking at the MAF and IAT.
PLEASE REVIEW
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Originally posted by Grey03
If thats true, then why did you want JL to do a chip for you recently?
If thats true, then why did you want JL to do a chip for you recently? Simple JJ, our tuner nutted up because he couldnt get his car running. I along with others, needed reburns for new mods. Pretty simple. Since i had the Diablo hardware, makes sense to goto another diablo tuner to get squared away.
JJ:
Wrong again. The computer has the ability to ignore the chips "look up table" and refer back to what it has already learned. It does not strictly look at the chip. This is why you have to clear all adaptives if you want to get a true reading on timing and A/F when you dyno.
Wrong again. The computer has the ability to ignore the chips "look up table" and refer back to what it has already learned. It does not strictly look at the chip. This is why you have to clear all adaptives if you want to get a true reading on timing and A/F when you dyno.
JJ :
And this is the whole problem with team reflash, they are giving out incorrect info on what this thing can do, who does it, and the story keeps changing.
Please answer my question about how the reflash reaches its A/F goal without looking at the 02's, and explain in detail how it does this by only looking at the MAF and IAT.
And this is the whole problem with team reflash, they are giving out incorrect info on what this thing can do, who does it, and the story keeps changing.
Please answer my question about how the reflash reaches its A/F goal without looking at the 02's, and explain in detail how it does this by only looking at the MAF and IAT.
First and foremost, HOW would you know exactly what this can do? Youre still stuck on the notion that this is a REFLASH of PCM when some chip program in it. Its a recalibrated PCM for one. Send your PCM in and try it out. What do you have to lose?
You guys are on stuck thinking Jerry from Ford chip is doing this. Why dont you call Jerry, ask him if he is the one that is doing this and more importantly, what he thinks about it? The identify of this person isnt important, just like you... hiding behind that screen name.
PLEASE REVIEW [/QUOTE]
If the PCM is recalibrated, using the MAF and IAT as a guide, it refers to modified tables. short trim and long trim table to achieve its targeted a/f. Its been explained more times then one.
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From: Florida
Originally posted by Thor01
The person who wrote the program and is flashing the PCM's has years of experience and is a calibrator. He has the ability to change or modify any part of the calibration.
The person who wrote the program and is flashing the PCM's has years of experience and is a calibrator. He has the ability to change or modify any part of the calibration.
As for the technical merits, this has been a great thread.
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From: Central Florida
Originally posted by unclemole
Most people who develop a product are proud of their accomplishments and don't hide from them. Those of you who know the "reflasher" (has a deviant ring to it) are confident of the accomplishments because of your "special" knowledge. The rest of us that aren't in the know or "special" have to assume that the "reflasher" is hiding something illegal, probably ripping-off his employer for time or intellectual property. This employer may decide to follow the music-industry lead and go after everyone involved in the intellectual property theft, including the end user.
As for the technical merits, this has been a great thread.
Most people who develop a product are proud of their accomplishments and don't hide from them. Those of you who know the "reflasher" (has a deviant ring to it) are confident of the accomplishments because of your "special" knowledge. The rest of us that aren't in the know or "special" have to assume that the "reflasher" is hiding something illegal, probably ripping-off his employer for time or intellectual property. This employer may decide to follow the music-industry lead and go after everyone involved in the intellectual property theft, including the end user.
As for the technical merits, this has been a great thread.
Actually, I think they are in a room laughing their rear ends off about this thread!!! Let's see... millions of users stealing music on the internet vs. a few hundred truck owners fiddling with their computers to make their vehicles faster and stomping more Chevys thereby making Ford look good and building the performance brand for Ford. Uhhh....errr...
(Name Withheld Pending Development of Conspiracy Theory)
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I see alot of people are still mixing up the terminology and things. Let me try one more time.
Chip: an offboard FLASH memory device that replaces ALL or part of a PCM's internal FLASH memory.
FLASH: A type of memory that is re-programmable.
Program: A set of CPU instructions that are executed to perform various functions.
Strategy: The program running in the PCM. Stored in FLASH memory located onboard or offboard the PCM. Uses various sensor inputs and calibration data to control various outputs.
Calibration: Data consisting of Tables, Scalars and Functions that tell the Strategy(program) how to perform. Located onboard or offboard the PCM.
FLASH Program: A program that is run on an external computer (such as a PC) who's only purpose it to transfer data to/from FLASH memory. Can be done via a handheld device (NGS, WDS, Predator, Microtuner..), through the J3 connector, or with a passthru device connected to a PC.
Calibrator: A person or persons who are responsible for the values in the calibration. Also a mythical realtime tuning device from AutoLogic.. had to put that one in
Calibration program: A program who function is to manipulate the calibration data to get the desired results of the calibrator. Usually outputs a binary or hex file that is loaded by the FLASH Program to be transfered to the PCM.
FLASH'ing: The process of re-writing FLASH memorys contents.
Re-FLASH: See FLASH'ing
WOT Adaptive: Ford's attempt at using a limited range, narrow band sensor to manipulate values at WOT. Normally found in trucks. Starting in Open Loop, the strategy will start ramping the fuel lean until it sees the O2 sensor(s) switch to lean. Now your running ~14.64:1 at WOT. The strategy goes into Closed Loop, updates the Adaptive Mutiplier tables in RAM for a calibrated number of cycles, then returns back into Open Loop mode. Repeat the process.
I'll have more shortly.. ran out of coffee.
Chip: an offboard FLASH memory device that replaces ALL or part of a PCM's internal FLASH memory.
FLASH: A type of memory that is re-programmable.
Program: A set of CPU instructions that are executed to perform various functions.
Strategy: The program running in the PCM. Stored in FLASH memory located onboard or offboard the PCM. Uses various sensor inputs and calibration data to control various outputs.
Calibration: Data consisting of Tables, Scalars and Functions that tell the Strategy(program) how to perform. Located onboard or offboard the PCM.
FLASH Program: A program that is run on an external computer (such as a PC) who's only purpose it to transfer data to/from FLASH memory. Can be done via a handheld device (NGS, WDS, Predator, Microtuner..), through the J3 connector, or with a passthru device connected to a PC.
Calibrator: A person or persons who are responsible for the values in the calibration. Also a mythical realtime tuning device from AutoLogic.. had to put that one in
Calibration program: A program who function is to manipulate the calibration data to get the desired results of the calibrator. Usually outputs a binary or hex file that is loaded by the FLASH Program to be transfered to the PCM.
FLASH'ing: The process of re-writing FLASH memorys contents.
Re-FLASH: See FLASH'ing
WOT Adaptive: Ford's attempt at using a limited range, narrow band sensor to manipulate values at WOT. Normally found in trucks. Starting in Open Loop, the strategy will start ramping the fuel lean until it sees the O2 sensor(s) switch to lean. Now your running ~14.64:1 at WOT. The strategy goes into Closed Loop, updates the Adaptive Mutiplier tables in RAM for a calibrated number of cycles, then returns back into Open Loop mode. Repeat the process.
I'll have more shortly.. ran out of coffee.
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From: Northern VA
Originally posted by jmimac351
Actually, I think they are in a room laughing their rear ends off about this thread!!! Let's see... millions of users stealing music on the internet vs. a few hundred truck owners fiddling with their computers to make their vehicles faster and stomping more Chevys thereby making Ford look good and building the performance brand for Ford. Uhhh....errr...
(Name Withheld Pending Development of Conspiracy Theory)
Actually, I think they are in a room laughing their rear ends off about this thread!!! Let's see... millions of users stealing music on the internet vs. a few hundred truck owners fiddling with their computers to make their vehicles faster and stomping more Chevys thereby making Ford look good and building the performance brand for Ford. Uhhh....errr...
(Name Withheld Pending Development of Conspiracy Theory)
Maybe in an ideal world Ford could carry on this romantic "battle" but the bottom line is all they care about now...
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Originally posted by BMWBig6
I don't think anyone is laughing at Ford right now. They're probably more interested in staying afloat than maintaining bragging rights over Chebby and Dodge. The increased warranty denial crackdowns proves they are trying to trim the hemorrhaging in any way possible... they would love to void the warranties of "a few hundred truck owners fiddling with their computers to make their vehicles faster." Maybe in an ideal world Ford could carry on this romantic "battle" but the bottom line is all they care about now...
I don't think anyone is laughing at Ford right now. They're probably more interested in staying afloat than maintaining bragging rights over Chebby and Dodge. The increased warranty denial crackdowns proves they are trying to trim the hemorrhaging in any way possible... they would love to void the warranties of "a few hundred truck owners fiddling with their computers to make their vehicles faster."
Maybe in an ideal world Ford could carry on this romantic "battle" but the bottom line is all they care about now...
That's a good point. I think the beancounters may feel that way, the engineers on the other hand...
Jim
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Team Reflash eh? Ok Team Truck Blower
As far as I can tell from reading the forums, this JJ character has tuned some very fast trucks that run just as fast, if not faster, and more consistant than most other higher boosted and ported/cammed head trucks. Most posts about this gentleman are positive and if you look into it, he has alot of very happy customers. Dont know where you get your info on blown up trucks from him, but I have only heard of one, and that was when he reburned a chip with a JDM program
just ask svtf150 about it.This thread is about reflashing the PCM, so lets get back on track shall we?
If the PCM is recalibrated, using the MAF and IAT as a guide, it refers to modified tables. short trim and long trim table to achieve its targeted a/f. Its been explained more times then one.
Time will tell on the reflash thing, and I wish everyone luck that goes this route. I for one am done debating with people that dont have the simple ability to post correct info or post without trying to bash someone else.
CLUB SAFE