Mike Wesley's response to Chip vs. Reflash
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Originally posted by Flying ****
Yes, limited. You can advance you timing and fuel by how many percent back and fourth? You say you have one for your powerstroke, so please explain how much flexibility you have with the Predator. Im aware you can set your shift points and gears. So what " other " tuning abilities are avail? I like the predator and was waiting and waiting on one, but now that the recal has come up, theres no need for me to go that route.
Yes, limited. You can advance you timing and fuel by how many percent back and fourth? You say you have one for your powerstroke, so please explain how much flexibility you have with the Predator. Im aware you can set your shift points and gears. So what " other " tuning abilities are avail? I like the predator and was waiting and waiting on one, but now that the recal has come up, theres no need for me to go that route.
As for what exactly the Predator offers options wise for Gas vehicles, aside from the custom tune, or on top of the custom tune, here is a list:
- Axle Ratio: Can adjust from a 2.xx up to a 6.xx in .01 increments.
- Cooling Fans: Will adjust both ON and OFF in 1 degree increments up/down.
- Power Enrichment (Fuel): Will adjust from -5% to +5% at WOT
- Spark (Timing): Will adjust from from -10% to +10% at WOT
- Shift Adaption (duration): Allows user to adjust the time delay during the gear change, i.e. quickness of the shift, from -25% up to +25%
- Shift Points (MPH): Allows user to adjust at what MPH the shift should take place, for each individual gear, in 1 mph increments.
- Shift Points (RPM): Allows user to adjust at what RPM the shift should take place, for each individual gear, in 10 rpm increments.
- Shift Pressure: Allows user to adjust the firmness of the shift action, for each individual gear, from -25% up to +25%
- Rev Limit: Allows user to adjust ON/OFF rev limits, for each individual gear, in 10 rpm increments.
- Wheel Sizing:
Factory Wheel Size: Enter the factory tire size in XXX/XX-XX format, i.e. 275/40-17
Actual Wheel Size: Enter the actual tire size in XXX/XX-XX format, i.e. 305/35-18
The Predator then calculates the difference in overall height for proper speedo calibration.
You can't do any of that yourself after your "re-calibration". There's many instances where these options would come in handy, on the street, at the track, or especially in saving you the time and money of having to send it back just to get 100 more rpms on the shift for a specific gear only, or a slightly firmer, and/or quicker shifting.
So does your "re-calibration" adapt to your mindwaves and realize that you want it to shift at 5400 on the track, and just 5200 around town? LOL! Sorry, I had to add in some humor to this.
Like i said, this is what i was told. Thanks for clarifying this. Question is, will every tuner actually send you that file?
Your chips maximum power safely immediately changes in cold weather conditions, humidity and heat. Ive witnessed it, just like many others have. The chip is LOCKED on that set of parameter modifications and the computer cannot pull timing if needed for these situations, now can it? So, how is the word safe attributed to that? Face it, people run hot tunes.
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...6779#post26779
Also, please refer to what Sal said.
That is completely untrue. I don't know why you guys think a factory or chipped PCM can't make weather changes. The factory calibration reads air temp via the IAT1 sensor, and reads air pressure/altitude via the BAP sensor. From there, it knows exaclty the incoming air conditions, and can make adjustments accordingly. That is why you can drive the same stock Lightning at sea level, and then at 5000 ft with no problems.
You guys need to get off this "a chip limits the PCM" thing, because it's totally wrong. A PCM is a computer, a computer runs off programs, and programs run off inputted data. The chip just inputs new data for those programs to use. Nothing is limited or disabled. The PCM still performs the same functions with a chip on it.
You guys need to get off this "a chip limits the PCM" thing, because it's totally wrong. A PCM is a computer, a computer runs off programs, and programs run off inputted data. The chip just inputs new data for those programs to use. Nothing is limited or disabled. The PCM still performs the same functions with a chip on it.
So, lets talk about Diablo... When you make the statement about " Who wants someone tuning their vehicle that will not step forward and state who they are? " thats an oxymoron. Who is tuning it? Patrick, ***** or Nick? It certainly isnt the vendor you are purchasing the chip from now is it? Ive even dyno'd tuned with Diablo and they still write and control the file, not the distributor or wanna be tuner guy.
I doubt you have any ability to do what you claim about reading a BOP reflash. I wouldnt put it past the gentlemen providing the service if certain areas are protected and/or locked. If i have the ability to rewrite the inner working of the PCM, you bet im going to find a way to protect my hard work.
As for "locking", why would he do that? To render the pcm useless for when you need to have a custom tune done in person from another company? So you're advocating this? I do not understand. Ed Wright and Steve Cole both do this in the GM world, and do you know how many owner's this frustrates. These two companies both have many issues with customer service as well, and the program locking is just one of them, as the customer's pcm becomes totally useless for reprogramming by other tuning companies, even to many GM dealers trying to reflash it (doesn't let them).
Last edited by Gen2 Lightning; Jul 8, 2003 at 03:05 PM.
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The PCM ADDS timing in cold weather, factory, or with chip. Therefore if your chip has added timing, and you add that to the added timing of the cold weather calibrations in the PCM, you have more timing than what you want.
Originally posted by Flying ****
Then why are people spitting rods in the winter time? they run their summer program with 17+ degrees of timing in winter, get lower density air, thus increasing boost and boom. The chip is not working with the PCM to allow it to adjust, aka.. pull timing.
Then why are people spitting rods in the winter time? they run their summer program with 17+ degrees of timing in winter, get lower density air, thus increasing boost and boom. The chip is not working with the PCM to allow it to adjust, aka.. pull timing.
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From: All over the US
Originally posted by Gen2 Lightning
A Powerstroke does not need the abilities that a Gas vehicles does. My references to the Powerstroke was to show that it only takes 2 to 3 minutes to program to a performance tune, or back to the original calibration.
As for what exactly the Predator offers options wise for Gas vehicles, aside from the custom tune, or on top of the custom tune, here is a list:
You can't do any of that yourself after your "re-calibration". There's many instances where these options would come in handy, on the street, at the track, or especially in saving you the time and money of having to send it back just to get 100 more rpms on the shift for a specific gear only, or a slightly firmer, and/or quicker shifting.
So does your "re-calibration" adapt to your mindwaves and realize that you want it to shift at 5400 on the track, and just 5200 around town? LOL! Sorry, I had to add in some humor to this.
Why wouldn't they? Sure, they can ship your Predator with a custom tune in it before it gets sent to you, but when you need a different tune for different mods, or if the initial tune wasn't right, then it would be redone and sent to the end-user via the internet. If you need a new tune, you get the file. The file will require serialization by the dealer, or Diablo, to work with your specific Predator so the file will not be whored around on the internet.
Mike Wesley elaborated on this some over on www.ModularFords.com as well. Here was his post:
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...6779#post26779
Also, please refer to what Sal said.
Going on...
This isn't anything new! Regardless, what's so big about this? It's the same way with Superchips dealers. By the way, Nick does not make files for Diablo. It's Patrick Stadjel, Willie Figueroa, and Johan Mangs. Eventually, there will be Diablo dealers with the capability to do this themselves, using the Revolution software.
Anyone with a Revolution burner, or a Deltachip burner, can take and read the file from a pcm, and then pass that info on to Diablo. Same with Autologic dealers. I'm not sure about Superchips dealers.
As for "locking", why would he do that? To render the pcm useless for when you need to have a custom tune done in person from another company? So you're advocating this? I do not understand. Ed Wright and Steve Cole both do this in the GM world, and do you know how many owner's this frustrates. These two companies both have many issues with customer service as well, and the program locking is just one of them, as the customer's pcm becomes totally useless for reprogramming by other tuning companies, even to many GM dealers trying to reflash it (doesn't let them).
A Powerstroke does not need the abilities that a Gas vehicles does. My references to the Powerstroke was to show that it only takes 2 to 3 minutes to program to a performance tune, or back to the original calibration.
As for what exactly the Predator offers options wise for Gas vehicles, aside from the custom tune, or on top of the custom tune, here is a list:
- Axle Ratio: Can adjust from a 2.xx up to a 6.xx in .01 increments.
- Cooling Fans: Will adjust both ON and OFF in 1 degree increments up/down.
- Power Enrichment (Fuel): Will adjust from -5% to +5% at WOT
- Spark (Timing): Will adjust from from -10% to +10% at WOT
- Shift Adaption (duration): Allows user to adjust the time delay during the gear change, i.e. quickness of the shift, from -25% up to +25%
- Shift Points (MPH): Allows user to adjust at what MPH the shift should take place, for each individual gear, in 1 mph increments.
- Shift Points (RPM): Allows user to adjust at what RPM the shift should take place, for each individual gear, in 10 rpm increments.
- Shift Pressure: Allows user to adjust the firmness of the shift action, for each individual gear, from -25% up to +25%
- Rev Limit: Allows user to adjust ON/OFF rev limits, for each individual gear, in 10 rpm increments.
- Wheel Sizing:
Factory Wheel Size: Enter the factory tire size in XXX/XX-XX format, i.e. 275/40-17
Actual Wheel Size: Enter the actual tire size in XXX/XX-XX format, i.e. 305/35-18
The Predator then calculates the difference in overall height for proper speedo calibration.
You can't do any of that yourself after your "re-calibration". There's many instances where these options would come in handy, on the street, at the track, or especially in saving you the time and money of having to send it back just to get 100 more rpms on the shift for a specific gear only, or a slightly firmer, and/or quicker shifting.
So does your "re-calibration" adapt to your mindwaves and realize that you want it to shift at 5400 on the track, and just 5200 around town? LOL! Sorry, I had to add in some humor to this.
Why wouldn't they? Sure, they can ship your Predator with a custom tune in it before it gets sent to you, but when you need a different tune for different mods, or if the initial tune wasn't right, then it would be redone and sent to the end-user via the internet. If you need a new tune, you get the file. The file will require serialization by the dealer, or Diablo, to work with your specific Predator so the file will not be whored around on the internet.
Mike Wesley elaborated on this some over on www.ModularFords.com as well. Here was his post:
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...6779#post26779
Also, please refer to what Sal said.
Going on...
This isn't anything new! Regardless, what's so big about this? It's the same way with Superchips dealers. By the way, Nick does not make files for Diablo. It's Patrick Stadjel, Willie Figueroa, and Johan Mangs. Eventually, there will be Diablo dealers with the capability to do this themselves, using the Revolution software.
Anyone with a Revolution burner, or a Deltachip burner, can take and read the file from a pcm, and then pass that info on to Diablo. Same with Autologic dealers. I'm not sure about Superchips dealers.
As for "locking", why would he do that? To render the pcm useless for when you need to have a custom tune done in person from another company? So you're advocating this? I do not understand. Ed Wright and Steve Cole both do this in the GM world, and do you know how many owner's this frustrates. These two companies both have many issues with customer service as well, and the program locking is just one of them, as the customer's pcm becomes totally useless for reprogramming by other tuning companies, even to many GM dealers trying to reflash it (doesn't let them).
Excellent post if I must say so myself
For all the people that believe a chip causes thrown rods in the winter, you need to think about this.
More dense 02 mixed with winter fuel mixed with clogged or restricted fuel filter, mixed with high load high speed blast with usually 4 or more lbs of boost over stock and put it all together with a loud radio or someone that doesnt know or understand what detonation is or what it sounds like = broken rods.
There are alot of other variables to take into account, but the chip wasnt the culprit, it was only a small part of the total picture, and any AFTERMARKET PROGRAMMING that changes the timing in anyway shape or form will suffer the same results.....
TO THE FRONT
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From: Gainesville, VA
Good god, this thread takes the cake over here, un real...
Beef summed it up best, most people have no idea about how the EEC works but they continue to go on and on about this and that...
Bottom line is, if you think you can do better and put out a better product than Mike Wesley can, then by all means go ahead and do it...I can only imagine what would happen if some Lightning guys were given a FAST or Accel Gen 7 system to work with...
All chips work, they do the same damn thing...They alter the program in the EEC and control fuel and spark, simple as that...End this BS already
Jeff
Beef summed it up best, most people have no idea about how the EEC works but they continue to go on and on about this and that...
Bottom line is, if you think you can do better and put out a better product than Mike Wesley can, then by all means go ahead and do it...I can only imagine what would happen if some Lightning guys were given a FAST or Accel Gen 7 system to work with...
All chips work, they do the same damn thing...They alter the program in the EEC and control fuel and spark, simple as that...End this BS already
Jeff
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Posts: 1,433
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From: cincinnati, ohio
and i'll say it for the umpteeth time, the computer "ADDS" timing in cold weather,
thats why people spit rods, because they are running more aggressive programming, and the added timing on a tune on the edge puts it over the top,
that simple,
as was said in the other thread, I AM JESUS, lol
i'm happy for nate, but again, the only difference is he now has a better program for his truck, it's not that because it's done on the PCM makes it any better, and, i guarantee you, off the nitrous, his power will be down compared to people with identical mods for the simple fact that the "reflasher" will have put in plenty of room for safety with the 75 shot,
like i said, i loved my 4 way chip,
run on the street at great power, when i want to be more aggressive at the track and run 98 or higher octane, i had the ability to add 3 more degrees of timing and boom, theres another .10, when i wanted to run nitrous, flip again, less timing, but still maximum power for the shot i was running,
once it got cold, flip to cold weather to still run aggressive, but safely,
YOU WILL NOT GET ALL THAT WITH THIS REFLASH,
the simple fact that you cant get the extra power with the higher octane turns me off,
i guarantee you, if nate runs 100 octane unleaded, he's going to lose power because the fuel will burn too slow for his program,
i'd love to know the timing he's running, ect.., i wonder if he has any idea?
thats why people spit rods, because they are running more aggressive programming, and the added timing on a tune on the edge puts it over the top,
that simple,
as was said in the other thread, I AM JESUS, lol
i'm happy for nate, but again, the only difference is he now has a better program for his truck, it's not that because it's done on the PCM makes it any better, and, i guarantee you, off the nitrous, his power will be down compared to people with identical mods for the simple fact that the "reflasher" will have put in plenty of room for safety with the 75 shot,
like i said, i loved my 4 way chip,
run on the street at great power, when i want to be more aggressive at the track and run 98 or higher octane, i had the ability to add 3 more degrees of timing and boom, theres another .10, when i wanted to run nitrous, flip again, less timing, but still maximum power for the shot i was running,
once it got cold, flip to cold weather to still run aggressive, but safely,
YOU WILL NOT GET ALL THAT WITH THIS REFLASH,
the simple fact that you cant get the extra power with the higher octane turns me off,
i guarantee you, if nate runs 100 octane unleaded, he's going to lose power because the fuel will burn too slow for his program,
i'd love to know the timing he's running, ect.., i wonder if he has any idea?
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From: Lexington, KY
Originally posted by NateTrun2
The one word everyone left out is adaptability for a chip! they can't do it! You fellas keep pounding this crap in the ground. I'll be laughing all the way to the bank. My truck is now running with the re-flash in, and I haven't stopped smiling. I know myself this thing works, and thats all that matters. I'm going to sit back and enjoy some laughs.
The one word everyone left out is adaptability for a chip! they can't do it! You fellas keep pounding this crap in the ground. I'll be laughing all the way to the bank. My truck is now running with the re-flash in, and I haven't stopped smiling. I know myself this thing works, and thats all that matters. I'm going to sit back and enjoy some laughs.
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From: Central Florida
I think there are quite a few guys reading this post that, although were "pretty sure" a chip was the only game in town, are starting to wonder in the back of their mind whether there really is something to this.
I also think that a lot of people are forgetting that we are talking about making horsepower and having fun. And if a more reliable way has been found to do it, it's good news for all of us. Whether your favorite tuner can provide it or not...
Jim
I also think that a lot of people are forgetting that we are talking about making horsepower and having fun. And if a more reliable way has been found to do it, it's good news for all of us. Whether your favorite tuner can provide it or not...
Jim
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jmimac351, now that you've spoken to Wesley, and also talked with others, over on www.ModularFords.com, would you now agree that your original assessment about a chip program or flash program concerning WOT adaptability is wrong, since it fact it is?
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...6803#post26803
I'm being completely civil here, so please do not take it as anything else.
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...6803#post26803
I'm being completely civil here, so please do not take it as anything else.
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From: Mi.
It's funny some here think that the person who wrote the reflash program is someone who had to go about it the same as the other tuners. The fact is the program your getting in a re-flash is not the same as the ones in the chip.
chip program and a recalibrated calibration are two totaly different things.
The person who wrote the program and is flashing the PCM's has years of experience and is a calibrator. He has the ability to change or modify any part of the calibration.
That advantage makes this argument a no win for the chip. If the programer decides to enlarge the capabilities and revise the reflash program to do more. He has the ability to do so. Just depends on how much time he is willing to put into it.
Not one aftermarket tuner can get on here and say they know the current level strategy and calibration better then the Ford and Roush calibrators who work on the product every day. They know all changes to the hardware/software.
It takes aftermarket chip suppliers months or years to decifer new strategy's and calibration's.
This current reflash program is limited at this time. However, it offers the people who don't have the cash to get a built bottom end get the optimum performace gains for their money. A chip doesn't change the function of the stock calibration. The chip's program overrides the stock calibration peramiters.
As for trucks running at sea level and high altitude! The PCM is programed to calculate and determin the course of action for the outputs, in open loop. At closed loop, it reads off set tables calibrated for see level and high altitude.
Only a few vehicle lines have adaptive control capability at WOT. Our truck isn't one of them. Unless you get the reflash!
One last thing! Who cares if the person providing this service doesn't want to be recognized! You don't have the names of all the Ford calibrators that calibrated that specific vehicle in the glove-box of a new car when you buy it. Sounds like a Witch hunt to throw someone off their game.
chip program and a recalibrated calibration are two totaly different things.
The person who wrote the program and is flashing the PCM's has years of experience and is a calibrator. He has the ability to change or modify any part of the calibration.
That advantage makes this argument a no win for the chip. If the programer decides to enlarge the capabilities and revise the reflash program to do more. He has the ability to do so. Just depends on how much time he is willing to put into it.
Not one aftermarket tuner can get on here and say they know the current level strategy and calibration better then the Ford and Roush calibrators who work on the product every day. They know all changes to the hardware/software.
It takes aftermarket chip suppliers months or years to decifer new strategy's and calibration's.
This current reflash program is limited at this time. However, it offers the people who don't have the cash to get a built bottom end get the optimum performace gains for their money. A chip doesn't change the function of the stock calibration. The chip's program overrides the stock calibration peramiters.
As for trucks running at sea level and high altitude! The PCM is programed to calculate and determin the course of action for the outputs, in open loop. At closed loop, it reads off set tables calibrated for see level and high altitude.
Only a few vehicle lines have adaptive control capability at WOT. Our truck isn't one of them. Unless you get the reflash!
One last thing! Who cares if the person providing this service doesn't want to be recognized! You don't have the names of all the Ford calibrators that calibrated that specific vehicle in the glove-box of a new car when you buy it. Sounds like a Witch hunt to throw someone off their game.
Last edited by Thor01; Jul 8, 2003 at 09:09 PM.
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From: Central Florida
Originally posted by Gen2 Lightning
jmimac351, now that you've spoken to Wesley, and also talked with others, over on www.ModularFords.com, would you now agree that your original assessment about a chip program or flash program concerning WOT adaptability is wrong, since it fact it is?
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...6803#post26803
I'm being completely civil here, so please do not take it as anything else.
jmimac351, now that you've spoken to Wesley, and also talked with others, over on www.ModularFords.com, would you now agree that your original assessment about a chip program or flash program concerning WOT adaptability is wrong, since it fact it is?
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...6803#post26803
I'm being completely civil here, so please do not take it as anything else.
Stay tuned... you are getting ready to eat your words...
[Hint] Nathan has been to the dyno.
Jim
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From: Houston, TX
quote
"Forgetting to turn on the knock sensors in the Gen 2 Lightnings was another mistake (maybe on purpose) a Ford calibration house made (among others). "
just to clarify... Ford left these out on purpose because the blower harmonics were affecting the knock sensors. but I understand that point you were trying to make
"Forgetting to turn on the knock sensors in the Gen 2 Lightnings was another mistake (maybe on purpose) a Ford calibration house made (among others). "
just to clarify... Ford left these out on purpose because the blower harmonics were affecting the knock sensors. but I understand that point you were trying to make
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From: All over the US
Originally posted by Thor01
Only a few vehicle lines have adaptive control capability at WOT. Our truck isn't one of them. Unless you get the reflash!
Only a few vehicle lines have adaptive control capability at WOT. Our truck isn't one of them. Unless you get the reflash!
You cannot turn the Lightnings EEC-V computer into an adaptive WOT programmed computer because we dont have the LS6 and LS8's 150 pin computer, we have the 104 pin computer and if you know anything about EEC-V programming, you need the extra pins for the control side of the system, not to mention the extra hardware attached to the sub systems. Failure mode effects management also comes into play with the 104 pin computer and is not WOT adaptive.
CHART TO TEST
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From: TEXAS
Originally posted by Thor01
One last thing! Who cares if the person providing this service doesn't want to be recognized! You don't have the names of all the Ford calibrators that calibrated that specific vehicle in the glove-box of a new car when you buy it. Sounds like a Witch hunt to throw someone off their game.
One last thing! Who cares if the person providing this service doesn't want to be recognized! You don't have the names of all the Ford calibrators that calibrated that specific vehicle in the glove-box of a new car when you buy it. Sounds like a Witch hunt to throw someone off their game.
I don't buy speakers from the "guy" in the van that has some $4000 speakers left over from a music studio install. I don't buy Steaks from the sweaty guy with the cooler in the back of his S-10 pickup. and I don't put my credit card # in Ecommerce websites that don't meet minimum criteria. They are all unknown people who due to a lack of store front, lack of name on the truck and lack of business card appear to be trying to intentionally "stay under the radar " so to speak.
And finally I care who is designing the newest untested, unproven, whiz bang, story keeps changing gadget out for Lightnings. I don't expect him or her to replace my engine when/if a faulty tune blows it up - BUT if I know who did it I can AT LEAST steer people away from him in the future....
Common sense to me.
I don't have to know the names of the Ford Calibrators. I just know they are Ford employees who worked on X programming and Ford will stand behind it. There is a BIG differnce between the anonymity of working at one of the Big 3 and Intentionally keeping your name away from a new independant product....
Doug
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From: Florida
Gen 2 Lighting, Grey03, or is it JJ?
Whoever you are, your posts seem to have a stricking similarity. You even give yourself a pat on the back as one poster to the next.
I don't claim to even begin to understand the EEC programming logic. But I can reconize when I'm being educated by someone with knowledge, education, and experience. Thor01 has practically spelled it out. It can't get any more clear. Guys.......everyone is being offered a service from someone who has an education, training, career, and the skill to do some good stuff. It's not just someone that's learned from trial and error. They know more then x+y = z, they know the theory behind it.
Whoever you are, your posts seem to have a stricking similarity. You even give yourself a pat on the back as one poster to the next.
I don't claim to even begin to understand the EEC programming logic. But I can reconize when I'm being educated by someone with knowledge, education, and experience. Thor01 has practically spelled it out. It can't get any more clear. Guys.......everyone is being offered a service from someone who has an education, training, career, and the skill to do some good stuff. It's not just someone that's learned from trial and error. They know more then x+y = z, they know the theory behind it.
Last edited by Onelfastlride; Jul 8, 2003 at 10:18 PM.
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From: Dallas
Then dont buy it Doug.
I went to the dyno with Nate and have scanned his dyno sheets for him. I will wait for him to post them as they are not mine.
I went to the dyno with Nate and have scanned his dyno sheets for him. I will wait for him to post them as they are not mine.
Last edited by 03Lightning; Jul 8, 2003 at 10:21 PM.